Discussion | 38 comments

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• Martin SchumannJune 22, 2012 - 7:07 am

  Linda! they keep changing the distance to the goal post every time that we get close to beating them in court; this trailer bill is just one of many ways that the extreme environmentalist are working together to defeat us. No longer an environmental issue they are showing everyone that we the citizens have no word even with proven scientific evidence (a sure sign of socialistic endeavors). First they stopped dredging for an environmental impact report and when that was showing signs of losing they extended the moratorium for three more years; that wasn’t working so they decided that they would legislate us out of business. How do you stop them???????? Take away the awesome amount of money that our government gives them, vote the law makers out of office and replace them with middle of the road conservatives.

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• kanakasunJune 22, 2012 - 9:06 am

  This whole trailer bill escapade is rather disheartening. The bill appeared out of nowhere, had no name, no number and no one knew who introduced it, nor do they remember voting on it. It was presented to the subcommittees without any public announcement so the miners could at least tell their side of the story. The bill traveled under the radar for the last month. I contacted every legislator in the state and no one had ever heard of it. And two days ago it surfaces and gets its name and number and is already on the fasttrack to the Governor for signage. No transparency here. If the environmentalists were about saving the environment, then they would have allowed science to determine the outcome. But upon realizing that the science of the EIR THEY mandated, the next best option was to use their legislative majority to ram legislation through where science didn't matter. This whole "run the miners off the river" mindset is curious. There has been no effort to suggest any sort of mitigation of the proposed issues- for instance, if they thought turbidity was a problem, they could have offered that dredgers use filter socks; if noise was an issue the dredgers could have worked to try to get the engine manufacturers to make quiter mufflers- but no such effort was extended by those who wanted the dredgers gone. What the rafters and fishermen who supported the anti-mining campaign don't realize is they may be next in line for being excluded from their rivers as a very strong case may be made that their presence also "may" have a deleterious effect on fish and birds. A few nights ago, I was talking with an off-shore sports fisherman from San Diego and he said their sport has effectively been run out of the state by the same environmentalists and regulators. It's happening to farmers, ranchers, miners, horsemen, and other back country users. It is time to wake up to the fact that there is a very well funded group of people who don't want the public to use the public resources. Wake up or lose it.

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• garyngoldberg@yahoo.comJune 22, 2012 - 9:17 am

  If you ask me, this is DIRTY POLITICS and a leaning close to, if not actually FRAUD! Today politicians are way out of line with these sorts of tactics. To me, it is a clear sign of political corruption! Wikipedia defines political corruption as: "...the use of power by government officials for illegitimate private gain. An illegal act by an officeholder constitutes political corruption only if the act is directly related to their official duties, is done under color of law or involves trading in influence."

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• Douglas Pucky JunghansJune 22, 2012 - 9:27 am

  The first two comments are right on the mark. Thanks Folks! I've been doing some reading about what I think is our main problem; AGENDA 21, and our Representatives are all crooked as snakes in the grass. Yup! That is the problem. Trust me

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• laughing at the rightJune 23, 2012 - 11:54 am

  You dredgers might as well face fact. your time has past. it is the 21st century and there is no place for people who destroy our creeks and rivers for a false promise of 'striking it rich'. Too bad martin, you might as well spend you remaining years pissing & moaning and pining for the past.

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• kanakasunJune 23, 2012 - 12:56 pm

  Laughing- if the "evidence" is so conclusive regarding "suction dredging destroying rivers", why do these bills which subvert the legislative process need to be introduced in this matter? If the science supported the environmentalists concerns, why don't they let the scientific evidence stand and let the DFG do their jobs? Sierra Fund, who was instrumental in the passage of many of these bills is rabidly against suction dredging for gold. Yet, they aren't as concerned about it when they get taxpayer funded grants to the tune of $3M to use a less efficient dredge for recovering mercury, to recover mercury (and gold of course). I guess if they are doing the dredging (and making taxpayer funded profits & keeping the gold), it isn't so bad. Sign me up, I want THAT Job. The environmentalists whine about the 25 foot long plume of dirty water behind my dredge, yet have no issues when the same type of dredge works up at Bowman Reservoir and turns the whole 50 mile length of the South Fork of the Yuba river milky white for 3 days. Makes perfect sense to me. As a dredger, I am ok if it is found that we are polluting the river (we aren't) and we are thrown off, but if we get thrown off, so should everyone else who is using the same technology (but not dredging for gold). Let's see some consistency here. The small scale miner is being singled out and harrassed off the rivers based upon NOTHING, yet other groups using the same technologies are allowed to continue, business as usual.

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• Gary GoldbergJune 23, 2012 - 1:01 pm

  Well Mr. Laughing at the Right, since you are too ashamed of posting with you real name, let me just offer a word of advice: It is people like you who either bury your heads in the sand or are too self-absorbed to see what is really going on in this country. Mother Nature has been taking care of this planet for BILLIONS of years without the intervention of the self-proclaimed environmentalists. The Environmentalists began on a worthy endeavor at the beginning, but have now gone so far overboard that they are actually destroying what Mother Nature has been caring for all these years! Like the Unions, who had their place back in the early days of Industrialization, they are obsolete and now so corrupt that they are no longer needed or welcome. You are right though, it is the 21st Century and it is time that you realize that your extremism is no longer needed or welcome. Please educate yourself on what is really happening in the United States and the World, for that matter. Ever heard of U.N. Agenda 21? Or ICLEI? Probably not! Well, I suggest you go find out about them. When you wake up in the near future and find that our way of life has been usurped and our Constitution has been eliminated along with all of our RIGHTS, don't come whining to the RIGHT, because you have been warned! Just for fun, here is an analogy for you: RIGHT = CORRECT LEFT = WRONG Hope all your dreams NEVER come true!

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• Laughing at the leftJune 23, 2012 - 1:04 pm

  Martin is going to win this one, you idiots that think you are in charge, your in for a big surprise. Obama is history along with his Socialistic ideas and cronies that think they can do what ever they want! are going to be history; the people are going to rise to the challenge.

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• kanakasunJune 23, 2012 - 1:20 pm

  As an interesting side-note, I have been trying to track this bill for the last month, and it has no name, no number, no author and it only surfaces for enough time to be voted upon, then it disappears again. We have tried to contact representatives about it, but without a name, number or author, it is impossible to track. I did get the chance to talk to a legislative aid who told me that ever since the public voted for a majority vote to pass legislation (rather than 2/3), the majority (who are currently the majority in both houses) don't even need to invite the Republicans to the hearings, because if the Democrats vote on party lines, it doesn't matter what the Republicans think. Personally, I am neither Democrat nor Republican and I vote for the best candidate in each election. So who's to say the Republicans wouldn't do the same thing if they were the majority. But in order to get some semblance of accountability back in California politics, it appears the majority vote rule needs to be rescinded. Let's make it where one party has to convince some of the members of the other party to vote accordingly, and maybe the majority of this dirty politics will be kept in some sort of control.

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• laughing at the rightJune 23, 2012 - 1:50 pm

  The first season of Madmen had a scene where Don Draper and family finish their picnic. He downs his beer, tosses the can and they walk away leaving the hillside scattered with the remains of their picnic. Yes mother nature has been maintaining itself for billions of years. But it only took mankind less than 200 years to: Pollute the air, pollute our waterways(ask the whales feeding on plastic the size pieces of plankton, you do remember the food chain?), or the wiped out species due to destruction of natural habitat. It took environmentalist to: reduce amount of pollution in our atmosphere (example; smog from cars and the Los Angeles basin), stop manufactures and ore processors from dumping toxic waste into rivers and is responsible for reducing the amout of toxic pollutants being spewed into the air, stop loggers from clear cutting our forests, raise awareness of the dangers of Nuke plants leaking. The environmental movement has raised awareness of OUR IMPACT on the planet. It will always be here because without it humans will continue to find new ways to destroy our ecosystem and a push back will always be needed. I like how you earth abusers love to push your paranoia on everyone, we aren't biting. Agenda21 is a joke on you and those who think like you. How do you enjoy being manipulated by the Heritage Foundation, Exonmobile, Fraud News and Glenn Beck(the guy who launched the a21 paranoia)? As far as my rights and the constitution being thrown out. Not happening now, not happening in the future. The environmental movement is not going away. ICLEI? scary boogie man. And yes, I read the news from multiple sources, even those on the right. I have read all I need to know about A21 and Iclei and neither worry me. What worries me is the continual dumbing down of our population by those regressives who want to move our country back to the 18th century. ahh the good ole' days when coal plants ruled the skies and there was no EPA or OSHA. We as a society recognize our impact on the planet, most of us would never think of tossing a can or remnants of our drive through dinner out of our cars anymore. We have matured.

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• laughing at the rightJune 23, 2012 - 2:23 pm

  I have to agree the majority rule in the statehouse is a big problem. I also don't think the problem will be resolved with the new district maps when they go into effect. Until we the people start to think for ourselves instead of listening to talking heads, we will never get out of this mess. After all, the elected officials work for us, we can fire them. Just ask Gray Davis.

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• Laughing at the leftJune 23, 2012 - 3:35 pm

  Talking about paranoia, you need to crawl back into the crack you came from. I certainly hope that you can buy your food for your survival because if anything catastrophic happens you’re a dead man. I am sure that you wouldn’t be able to find shelter for a night, if the electric went out you and your computer would parish. Friend you’re a pitiful example of mankind; you were raised with the silver spoon in your mouth and have no idea what or how to survive without. It is a good thing that you were brought up in the United States, because if you were from an area that didn’t supply you with everything you wouldn’t be here to convey your ignorance. Yes this world recoups from all forms of human intervention; common since goes a long way; you can be an environmentalist without shutting down the nation.

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• Gary GoldbergJune 23, 2012 - 4:11 pm

  OK Laughing, this is my final post on this subject. If Agenda 21 and ICLEI don't scare you then you must be a product of the U.N.'s infiltration of the school systems throughout the U.S and the World. UNESCO was initiated in 1947 which is when the "DUMBING DOWN OF AMERICA" began. You ask if I have ever heard of the "food chain". As a matter of fact I have! Correct me if I am wrong, but what I remember from my over 60 years as part of it, Mankind was at the TOP of it! Now you want the Sand Flea to be more important than mankind. Uh...who's got a twisted understanding of the Food Chain, I ask you! Have you ever heard of the Natural Order of Selection? Or was that not taught when you went to the NEW POLITICALLY CORRECT generation of schools, where 1 + 1 can equal 3 because it leads to creativity? Just for your edification, I have been an environmentalist all my life. I was always taught that you "pack out more than you pack in", and to this day I still adhere to that. As I said before, environmental consciousness is a duty of everyone! Extreme Environmentalism is a product of fanatics! You point out 1 instance of a guy drinking a beer and throwing it on the ground with his after picnic trash. Are you so naive that you believe everything that the producers of a movie or T.V. show put out? Everything is SCRIPTED to show the point of view of the producer. I like to look at reality, not someone's biased opinion of reality. For example, reality shows me all the trash (including dirty diapers) that I have to pick up from you thoughtless environmentalists every time I go to my mining claims. Most of this is caused by those environmentally friendly kayaking and rafting enthusiasts who dispose of their environmentally friendly plastic water bottles, aluminum cans, fast food wrappers, etc. on the banks of the river on my claims. I won't even bother to mention those environmentally conscious fishermen who pollute our rivers and streams by leaving their lead weights and hooks stuck in the river rocks so that the fish can enjoy the lead poisoning or some little kid can step on the fish hook and get an infection. OOOPPPS, I guess I just did, OH WELL! So with that (and I could go one for years talking about you deluded young extremist) but there is nothing that can be said to convince your brainwashed younger generations. I think I will stop now, but I am SO GLAD that I got to post my thoughts about your ridiculous posts before they make freedom of speech and freedom of the press illegal, because it isn't far away!!! Sweet Dreams in LALA LAND!

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• kanakasunJune 23, 2012 - 4:27 pm

  Laughing on the right - Originally, I agree the environmental organizations when they were run by a couple of activists, had the right idea; the corporations were running a muck destroying everything in sight in the name of capitalism and the enviros did a good job pushing back. The early enviros were in it for the right ideas- they wanted to save the environment and they wanted others to realize the environment needed to be saved. But somewhere along the line, the small enviro organizations also became corporations and in order to ensure their own existence, they needed to keep finding boogeymen to go after so the donators would keep donating and they could keep getting grants. Somewhere down the line, I think the Multinational Corporations decided they also needed some allies in the environmental movement in order to stay on the correct side of the issues. Do an internet search for "greenwashing". Every multinational greenwashes in some form or another. The Gulf Catastrophe was quickly greenwashed away and as far as anyone knows it is all cleaned up. Even though there are all sorts of genetic deformities in the fish out there, but in the public eye, everything is fine. How come the environmentalists aren't still jumping up and down about the ongoing tragedy out in the gulf? Let's see some lawsuits against those regional polluters. Did the oil company fix it? People in the gulf don't think so, but the media has moved on. Have you heard about Fukashima? You know that nuke plant in Japan that had issues? Fish off the coast of CA are being tested with high levels of radiation, yet none of the environmental groups seem to care (probably because they can not sue anyone to make any money off it). Not one of the enviros has spoken a word about the genetic deformities in the ocean and its effect on salmon, yet they find it in the best interest of their constituency to go after the small scale dredgers who on a rare occasion may "possibly" disturb a single fish? Something is very wrong with this picture. They are going after the dredgers because they are easy pickings and it will be another cause to rally their troops behind. To go after well funded multinationals is another story and much more expensive. And after they force the dredgers off the rivers, maybe they will go after the rafters, or the fishermen (bigger constituency, so they will probably wait on that one). The main point is, the modern enviro organization is in it for the money, and it has nothing to do with the environment.

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• Russ PearceJune 23, 2012 - 5:46 pm

  this is far more than DIRTY POLITICS! this is the blind leading the blind and the democrats are pushing this because the wacoenviromentalists have backed the democrats to get into office.these gubermint socalled "representatives"of ours have violated their oath of office and now they are running our great Country into the sewer,and far the most part, Americans dont even know or want tobe bothered by it! so much for them being Americans!most Americans dont even bother to research these socalled "representatives"to see if they have even tried to help America out of this mess we are in!all they are interested in is supporting "their" party and forget about the people they are supposed to represent! its far worse than dirty politics and most wont even bother to look up before they get hit in the head! what a shame!

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• laughing at the rightJune 23, 2012 - 6:40 pm

  Glad I touched a nerve. Being at the top of the food chain does no good when the chain has broken links... laughing at the left, if I was born with a silver spoon in my mouth it was yanked out right after birth. My parents worked for a living. When the electricity goes out I don't worry because I use batteries to store electricity from my solar panel. Don't know where you got paranoid, I'm not the one harping on the UN's supposed invasion of America. The scene from Madmen I refered to took place prior to the 1970's, exactly how it was until we raised our collective conscience. People didn't think twice about tossing a beer/soda can or trash out of the car window. For the record, I was born in 1955 so don't think I am some naive kid going to some pc school. I was filming the pollution of the Sacramento River back in 1969. I can go back to the same spot today and it is clean By that I mean no more sludge, oil residue, or dead fish. I have backpacked and hiked in the Sierras and the high desert and I kayak on our lakes. I see bottles, trash, styrofoam. That is just on the water. On some lakes the logical landing spots many times will have the fishing lines, weights and hooks that someone else refered to plus broken glass. Go out Mormon Immigrant Rd. take a turn down one of the forests roads and you will see all the damage done by target shooters. Some areas are littered as far as the eye can see with shell casings and shattered orange targets, and of course, bottles and trash. A long as there are humans abusing the planet, there will be pushback. As far as deformed fish, the environmentalists are the ones that brought it to my attention. Oh and as a side note to Gary, yes I do work for the United Nations. There are literally thousands of us in America who have infiltrated our k-12 schools so that we can indoctrinate your offspring. That is why I don't use my real name here. You would find out which school I am currently molding into our world vision and then I would have to start over. As far as all the rest. Glad I touched a nerve.

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• Laughing at the leftJune 23, 2012 - 7:25 pm

  OMG laughing at the right you’re so inept. If you see trash along the river it is from rafters, tubers, fishermen and visitors not dredgers. I have removed more crap from the river that you have ever seen; show me some pictures of the stuff that you have removed. 1955 you were one of the hippies that missed the draft! That is too bad you needed some guidance; I bet your head is still spinning from all the good stuff that was going around, it defiantly distorted your ability to reason.

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• laughing at the rightJune 23, 2012 - 7:57 pm

  latl I never blamed dredgers for trashs etc. They aren't mining for gold on Wrights Lake. I won't get in a pissing contest to see who picked up the most trash. Your empty attacks are all the more reason I am Laughing At The Right. btw: I served 6 years active duty in the USMC.

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• kanakasunJune 23, 2012 - 10:25 pm

  It sounds like we all are adults here, so rather than getting in a pissing contest with anyone, I like to ask a few simple questions: If the environmentalists are right, and the suction dredgers are damaging the rivers, why are the environmentalists resorting to political dirty tricks to run the dredgers off the rivers? If the science supported their claims, why not let the scientific process dictate the outcome without rushing in and legislatively forcing a conclusion? In 2011, why did Assemblyman Jared Huffman introduce AB120 using the same nefarious techniques evidenced by this latest bill (no name, no number, surfaces just to get voted upon and then goes underground)? Why did the bill he wrote demand the defunding the completion of the new EIR that the Environmentalists and the Kaurk Indian Tribe (who by the way Kill millions of fish a year, but for some reason the DFG doesn't feel their fish killing is deleterious to fish) themselves caused to be conducted at the tune of a $2M bill to the taxpayer, and yet then introduces a bill to defund the completion? Could it be that the results weren't what the environmentalists expected? Why else would they introduce a bill that defeats the whole process they instigated? Fortunately for the miners, Governor Brown vetoed the defunding, but for some reason felt that the $100M the miners contributed to the economy of the state of California wasn't worth continuing since apparently the economy is just fine in California and feeling no ill effects. I encourage you to wear the boots of a small miner for just a moment. "Laughing at the right", you are an intelligent guy and I am sure you can recognize when the facts don't add up it typically means you are being scammed. I got news for you, the small miners are being scammed. When you follow the breadcrumbs of this whole process, you quickly recognize that you have entered an alternate reality where groups who kill millions of fish for a living (fishermen and Karuk Indians) are suing the miners for killing fish when there is not a single shred of evidence a single fish has ever been killed; or perhaps let's look at the yellow legged frogs- the miners are being blamed for their demise (without a single shred of evidence) , yet no one notices that there are many peer reviewed articles which state the DFG's fish stocking program of stocking non-native fish AND a fungal infection spread by green legged frogs are the main culprits responsible for the demise of this species. It goes on and on and NOTHING makes sense, except apparently to the environmentalists who have their green blinders on. In this reality, up is down and right is wrong and not a bit of any of the science claimed by the environmentalists makes any sort of sense- yet the public believes the lies and demonizes the small scale miner. Try wearing those shoes for a while if you want to feel what a real injustice feels like.

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• Laughing at the leftJune 24, 2012 - 3:46 am

  Mr. L. Right. I know Mr. Schumann was a hard working successful businessman that gave up all to pursue a dream retirement that was negated. He invested heavily into what he thought was going to be the American dream only find his investment was for not. It’s no wonder he and many other miners are up in arms, your kind without any true evidence are taking away dreams to forward your so called green agenda with underhanded collusion with the EPA, Sierra Fund, Sierra Club and a selected few Senators and legislators to wipe out individual rights. Our government has let lies and deceit rule over Constitutional rights; judges are no longer non partisan, I don’t know if it is because big brother is breathing down their necks or they just forgot what they stand for! enforcement of our constitution and law as written. America without a doubt is failing its citizens as country of freedom, it is falling into the category of domination and servitude, in other words a socialistic society. People if you enjoy freedom you need to stand up and fight now before it is too late.

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• kanakasunJune 24, 2012 - 6:51 am

  Laughing at everyone- let's not fall into the left/right paradigm in this discussion. Although currently, the Democrats seem to be the bad guys, but let us not forget that the "Terminator" Schartznegger, terminated suction dredging by signing SB670. This doesn't appear to be a left vs right issue, because if you take in the big picture, I think the quote by Charles Ferguson who wrote "Predator Nation" sums it up best: “Over the last thirty years, the United States has been taken over by an amoral financial oligarchy, and the American dream of opportunity, education, and upward mobility is now largely confined to the top few percent of the population. Federal policy is increasingly dictated by the wealthy, by the financial sector, and by powerful- and often mismanaged industries- such as telecommunications, health care, automobiles,(I would also throw in there, Non Governmental Organizations - NGO's- like Sierra Club, Sierra Fund, Centers for Biological Diversity, etc) and energy. These policies are implemented and praised by these groups’ willing servants, namely the increasingly bought-and-paid-for leadership of America’s political parties, academia, and lobbying industry (and the mainstream press- other than the Mtn Democrat, who tells it like it is).” The environmental NGO's have successfully attacked (and won) by beating down the logging industry, chased manufacturing offshore, and now are working at decimating what's left of the small independent miner, farmer and rancher through their cry for "Save the environment". For an interesting read about the destruction of the middle class, I would encourage you to read this short, but succinct essay on "Who destroyed the middle class" at the Burning Platform website: http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=35850 After you are done with that read, it may start to sink in that "someone" wants the small businessman run out of their businesses - and it a full-frontal attack aimed at the small businessman through over-regulation and out and out destruction of entire viable industries like small scale gold mining. You can tell the purpose of the NGO's is total destruction, due to the fact that they make no effort to try to create a climate where new small businesses can replace the old. Their newly defined job is to destroy small business while themselves, they reap in taxpayer funded grants and ever more generous donations by well meaning but easily duped supporters. In most cases, the only jobs found in the newly devastated industries are for minimum wages working for mega corporations. I think we need to take a bigger view of the whole picture here.

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• Martin SchumannJune 24, 2012 - 7:37 am

  I just read http://www.theburningplatform.com/?p=35850 which has made me think a little more about our demise. Great article, suggest all commenter’s read this.

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• Laughing at the leftJune 24, 2012 - 7:55 am

  Suction dredging for gold is touted as being environmentally harmful by the Karuk tribe and environmentalists. Curiously, the same anti-mining foes are seeking $9 million from California taxpayers to dredge for mercury in the State waterways. Dredging is legal in virtually every waterway, year round for numerous purposes - unless, that is, you're dredging for gold. That's outlawed in the Golden State read this if you need something to comment about. http://golddredger.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1430#p11356

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• kanakasunJune 24, 2012 - 8:24 am

  Glad you liked the article, Martin. I actually used the wrong link- it is a multipart article and only 2 parts have been posted. You need to go here to see the first and the second parts: http://www.theburningplatform.com/ And it is true, when you view what is going on from the Macro view, it seems to put everything into perspective. Unfortunately our public educational system has successfully "schooled us" but in that very effective process, has neglected to teach us how to ask our own questions and come to our own linear conclusions. We were taught to accept the authority of those who lord over us and not to use our cognitive thought process to weed out contradictions, such as: 1. Karuks who kill millions of fish, sue the dredgers who don't kill fish 2. 3 Million fishermen who kill fish, also on the lawsuit to destroy dredging which doesn't kill fish 4. Karuk Political leadership with ties to Pot Growing and Meth Manufacture sue dredgers to get them out of back country so they can continue their illicit business practices unimpeded. 5. 60 years of peer reviewed science shows that suction dredging as NOT impact on environment, so DFG uses EIR baseline as if dredging had never occurred in state prior to EIR, so they didn't have to refute the 60 years of studies, they just ignored them. 6. The organizations which are instrumental in destroying the gold suction dredging industry, write the laws such that the only dredgers affected by the laws are the gold dredgers and yet leaves EVERY OTHER SIMILAR TYPE OF DREDGING IN THE STATE UNTOUCHED. 7. Those same organizations who shut down small scale gold dredging win taxpayer funded grants to the tune of $3M (they were hoping for $9M) to use dredges using the same technology (and even less efficient at recovering mercury than the small scale gold dredgers) and no one even considers the idea that there is a conflict of interest here? 8. Turbidity is an issue as recognized by the DFG if a 4" gold dredge discolors a quarter width of the river for 50 feet before dispersing into the clear water, yet Nevada Irrigation District can use a similar dredge to work on Bowman reservoir and that work turns over 50 miles of the south Fork of the Yuba milky white for 3 days and there is no issue?? 8. Numerous peer reviewed studies showed that the DFG's planting of non-native trout species (without the ever so important EIR process which was thrust upon the small scale miner, was even considered) coupled with a fungus spread by green tree frogs was the reason for the decline in Yellow and Red Legged Frogs- yet the Suction dredge EIR concluded that the sporadic use of suction dredges in our state were responsible for the demise of the frog populations (even in watersheds where the miners weren't mining). The data points of contradiction can go on for longer than you want to read my post. Unfortunately, most of the public has such a short attention span, due to their "schooling" vs "learning" so the contradictions don't raise a single hint of a question of the viability of the facts as presented by the DFG and the Environmentalists. I think THAT IS THE MOST IRRITATING PART OF THIS WHOLE THING. Just look for the contradictions and that will be your first clue this is a railroad job. Anyone who concludes anything differently, obviously hasn't looked at ALL THE FACTS.

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• trailblazerJune 24, 2012 - 9:25 am

  laughing at the right,obviously knows absolutely nothing about,suction gold dredging. He is just regurgatating,what he heard,on one of his ,how to destroy California, green websites. Not eligible,to many lies,pro socialist,Marxist,communist In November,Obama will be DONE "laughing at the right"

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• Use to be GREENJune 24, 2012 - 12:52 pm

  Hey laughing at the RIGHT >> Your Wrong. Is you comment "I served 6 years active duty in the USMC supposed to impress me ? I served in the 101 st airborne. "Screaming Eagles" Many of us served. I am not a dredger, but these miners have a point. I am 64 yrs old. I belonged to several environmental groups at one time,including the sierra club, but NO LONGER. Why ? Because they have become BIG business and Litigate happy. Ever heard of the Center for Biodiversity ? 90 % Lawyers ! The Environmentalists twist the story to make a point. It is ok for that Indian tribe on the Klamath river to gill net Coho Salmon, A "protected species", yet then litigate because they claim miners are killing fish ? I LOVE to go fishing. The Ca. Fish and game issues over 2 million permits for us to KILL fish. I kill em too. Yes, if each fisherman kill ONLY 3 fish each year, WOW that's about 6 MILLION FISH. From what I have read, these dredges don't put stuff in the river. They take out. Including some of the millions of pounds of lead deposited by me and other fisherman over the many years. This lead is soft and will eventually be ground down and enter the food chain. And you pick on miners whose dredges can CLEAN our environment. Are you NUTS ? Someone mentioned the 25 foot plume of cloudy river behind a dredge. Give me a break. Have you ever looked at the rivers after a big rain event ? Muddy, cloudy for a 100 miles. Every user group has good and bad. The miners shouldn't blame the rafters and fisherman for garbage, anymore than we should blame the miners. I don't know why you people can't get along. They have rights as much as any other groups. I served 30 years in the service to protect peoples rights. This is still a free country, but that we are loosing too. PS. I am a Democrat, but Obama MUST GO.

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• garyngoldberg@yahoo.comJune 24, 2012 - 1:10 pm

  THANK YOU "Used to be Green"! Your's is the most reasonable response yet. I agree with you 100% and I applaud you for weighing in. I personally didn't mean to cast stones at other groups like fishermen, rafters, etc. but it just gets very disheartening to listen to the LIES that the opposition continues to spread, without any scientific proof to back them up. We dredgers have always tried to be fair and work withing the restrictive guideline that the DF&G have put out, in spite of the fact that the Federal Mining Laws do not require us to. These folks need to remember that Dredgers did not start this illegal battle. We were very happy to just go about our business without picking on anyone! Well thanks for your well written, logical, and correct assessment.

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• Vic SubiaJune 24, 2012 - 1:10 pm

  "Use to be GREEN" --- Well, said, thank you.

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• J. OthersideJune 24, 2012 - 6:46 pm

  Not even close, laughing at the right. I live near Mormon Immigrant Rd and take my cubscouts out for geocaching trips down the dirt roads. Have yet to see the "areas are littered as far as the eye can see with shell casings and shattered orange targets, and of course, bottles and trash". You must be very near sighted, perhaps your eyes only can see a few feet? Funny thing about geocaching is you go back to the exact same spots year after year. Still nothing but clean meadows and forests. And as scouts adhere to a "leave no trace" philosophy we are always on the lookout for trash to pick up. Never had a full bag, not even close. If you are that concerned and you see this trash, why don't you also take the initiative to clean it up? I also do fresh water inspections during construction projects on rivers, lakes, etc. I actually test the water with a turbidimeter and pH meter. I see plumes kicked up by workers, cranes, buckets, whatever and test upstream and downstream results. The plumes are always settled by 50 ft, even though the permit allows 300ft. The only exception is during the winter and spring when the rivers are full. The natural erosion of river and lake banks is far more "damaging" than anything else, and for much longer periods of time. Again, I actually test the water during these times. And yet the flora and fauna come back, naturally, year after year. Sorry, but your opinions and less than factual statements give the "green" movement an unsupportable platform.

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• laughing at the rightJune 25, 2012 - 11:01 am

  Here is a link to what the opponnents of suction dredging have to say. http://rogueriverkeeper.org/what-we-do/hot-topics/impacts-of-suction-dredging-on-rivers-fish-and-aquatic-communities My first comment on this thread still stands.

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• laughing at the rightJune 25, 2012 - 12:27 pm

  Use to be GREEN--2 comments....1. dredgers are ONLY interested in gold. Everything else they 'dredge' up is dumped back into the river/streams(regardless of the claims they are cleaning the river up. 2. Thanks for your lifetime of service. I only brought up my own experience because LATL made a snide remark directed at me.

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• kanakasunJune 25, 2012 - 12:58 pm

  Laughing at the right: "1. dredgers are ONLY interested in gold. Everything else they 'dredge' up is dumped back into the river/streams (regardless of the claims they are cleaning the river up)..." And your experience with this is???? Everyone I know who is a dredger has piles and piles of crap they have packed out of their claims and have taken it all home. Where does your expertise come from? You make a blanket assertion with no proof to back it up, and we are supposed to believe it? True, there may be some miner dirt bags out there, but there are also rafter dirt bags who dump their garbage in the river, too. I'd get you FACTS straight before you make false accusations which indict the whole industry. The bottom line of this whole argument is you need to follow the logic- if the enviros are right in their assertions, why do they need to resort to dirty politics (on multiple occasions) to get their ways? Especially when the majority party supports their activities? It makes no sense unless they are trying to pull a fast one- which they are.

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• laughing at the rightJune 25, 2012 - 1:42 pm

  kanakasun. I was not refering to what is packed into the dredge site. Correct me if I am wrong but from what I have read, what is suctioned out of the river bed is returned to the river bed. If the suction dredgers want to take a stand, they should commission an unbiased independent study of suction dredging and/or hire a lobbyist.

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• kanakasunJune 25, 2012 - 2:04 pm

  Laughing at the right: Welcome to the twilight zone- The environmental firm hired by the DFG to do the EIR, didn't follow SEQA at all. When you do a subsequent EIR, the first thing you have to do is to refute the old science of the original EIR, and to show what had changed "on the ground" between the original EIR and the new one. Horizon Environmental, arbitrarily (and I contend, capriciously) decided to use the excuse that since the miners were under a "moratorium" , then they were going to use a baseline of the miners NEVER, EVER being in the water in the past as the baseline. That way, they didn't have to show what had changed and they wouldn't have to use over 60 YEARS OF GOVERNMENT SPONSORED, PEER REVIEWED STUDIES- all, which I might add, showed that the only effect upon the river was short termed and localized. Again, I must suggest that you go to the Western Mining Alliance website and they have all sorts of evidence of the lack of logic in this whole exercise. There's lots of things wrong about the enviros argument (stuff stated before), the fact that the DFG included the WHOLE STATE as a single "project" and therefore lumped all the regulations into a single regulation which has nothing to do with a lot of specific locations all over the state; the fact that since they didn't refute the previous science, they only had a couple "on-staff" scientists who engaged in really sloppy work, deriving spurious conclusions. Plain and simple, this is a RAILROAD job. Again- why do they need to engage in dirty politics to shut down the miners? Why not let the science, which they purport supports their conclusions do it? The reason is the science DOESN'T SUPPORT THEIR CONCLUSIONS. When an acquaintance of yours cheats to get ahead, do you naturally conclude that they probably didn't need to do so, but was probably right and they did it just to ensure victory? Think about it. The only reason someone needs to cheat is they have something to hide. The miners have nothing to hide- all of our conclusions are based on science and there is no inconsistencies- yet you follow the enviros arguments, and nothing logically makes sense. That is your first clue.

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• Martin SchumannJune 25, 2012 - 3:47 pm

  The following information for those that want expert opinion: http://www.akmining.com/mine/excerpts.htm Very informative on the effects of dredging! not

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• J. OthersideJune 25, 2012 - 4:56 pm

  I visited your Oregon based link, laughing-at-the-right, and it is immediately clear that there are no supporting facts, only rhetoric and opinion. In fact, to quote from that site: "Our streams violate water quality standards for temperature, bacteria, sedimentation and other pollutants, yet there is often not enough information about these problems to identify the root causes, find lasting solutions and advocate for change that results in better water quality." If the root causation cannot be identified, why are the suction dredgers specifically being targeted?

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• trailblazerJune 26, 2012 - 12:20 pm

  laughing at the right, wrong again. A suction gold dredge,not only catch gold,but also lead , mercury and other heavy metals. Returning the gravel to the stream bed cleaned of these substances. You are laughing,at the right, but I'm laughing,at the WRONG !

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• Don EschFebruary 16, 2013 - 1:48 pm

  Folks, Oregon needs as much help as can given to help us defeat a bill--which will become pernament law once passed. Oregon SB 115 prohibiting glacer gold mining using ANY FORM of motorized equipment whether in the water, dry land on top of hills, or even in the desert. More dangerous than the temporary stoppage they did to you. I have been asked to gather both personal and business loses this has caused to present at a rally at our capitol in about a week or and rushing. Besides this bill, there are several others that would create "Oregon Scenic Waterways" about 1400 miles of streams and almost all of them mineral bearing. un21 maybe? Even ones that would prohibit crossing streams with an ATV of gross weight of 200lbs. Heck, I weigh almost 200lbs as is. If any body can help me find ths information about monies lost to busuinesses such as RV parks, hotels, mining supplies, it would help with my testomy and presentation for the hearings. Thanks much. Don Esch

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