Wednesday, April 23, 2014
PLACERVILLE, CALIFORNIA
99 CENTS

Pentagon buying a ‘batch’ of F-35s

EDITOR:

The Washington Post and the New York Times recently published a story that “The Pentagon and Lockheed-Martin have recently come to an agreement for the purchase of a batch of F-35s for the Air Force…”

The story did not explain what makes up a “batch” of airplanes but it did mention that it would cost us “about $4 billion.” “Batch” is another Pentagonese invention, like “collateral damage” and other Orwellian expressions for which the military is so justly infamous.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter — Air Force version — was originally estimated to cost $90 million. The generals and Lockheed gave it such a build-up that the only thing the F-35 would not do is cure the common cold. That $90 million did not include avionics, weapons, training of pilots and ground crews, spare parts, and all the “et ceteras” that accompany Pentagon purchases.

The Navy and Marine Corps versions of the F-35 have had so many problems (e.g. the tail hook refuses to catch the cable of the carriers) that they are decades (and billions in more research) from ever being operable.

The Air Force version, however, is operational, sort of, kinda, on a very limited basis. Although this version (the cheaper of the three) already costs $260 million per fully equipped plane, it has been grounded because it tends to kill the pilots. Rather than loading heavy oxygen bottles for the pilots, the F-35 is designed to produce oxygen via a chemical reaction. Unfortunately, the system does not work: so many pilots have crashed that some are now refusing to fly the thing. The Pentagon’s solution, as usual, is to offer a few hundred millions more to the contractor so he can fix his own mistakes.

Nevertheless, the Air Force is buying an unspecified “batch” of planes that cannot fly and that we cannot afford. In spite of this, Congressman McClintock wants to cut budgets for schools, seniors and medical research and shovel the savings into the bottomless pit that is the Pentagon. Ain’t this a great country, or what?

JOHN GARON
Placerville

Letters to the Editor

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Discussion | 94 comments

  • Phil VeerkampDecember 31, 2012 - 6:12 am

    John, nice job at the end tying McClintock to that F-35 cluster feeuuseek. Your range of reach makes this possible. - Given your experience at State perhaps you can provide background on the SOP at State on slips, trips, and falls. If someone at State had slipped, tripped or fallen on December 13 but didn’t end up in the hospital until December 30th after a blood clot was “found” would that person be in violation of State policy? Or are some at State “too big to fall(fail)”?

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  • James E.December 31, 2012 - 9:03 am

    Phil, not sure what you imply. Are you saying if you fall on December 13 then one must have a blood clot on the 13th? No blood clot discovery after midnight on the 13th permitted? And, if a clot is found on December 30th, the State Department policy is that it is in violation of State Department blood clot policy, and therefore not authorized. Phil, are you being snarky?

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  • Phil VeerkampDecember 31, 2012 - 9:11 am

    What, Colonel? Me snarkey? What an unkind suggestion!

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  • cookie65December 31, 2012 - 9:39 am

    There is no question that the disease of liberalism has infested both the military and the pentagon. The intoxication of spending other peoples money is very potent. Isn't a great country where someone can work in the public sector for 30 years and get paid for 60?

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  • cookie65December 31, 2012 - 9:45 am

    Phil, have you ever seen a more perfect setup for "I don't recall"? The cat is out of the bag with the claim that she is being treated with blood thinners (unless they are talking about vodka) since they don't treat blood clots in the cranium with blood thinners. Maybe her two brain cells ran into each other and the impact caused her to fall down.

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  • EvelynDecember 31, 2012 - 10:04 am

    Cookie, you use one word - "liberal" - as a catchall for everything you oppose. I will not ask you for your definition because with every posting you repeat your point. However, humans have the ability to make words mean whatever we wish. A parent abusing their child while saying "I love you" defines that term by their actions. My understanding of "liberal" differs from yours; I'll go with the following: LIBERAL: a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. c. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism. ********** My understanding of "liberal" stands quite apart from government corruption, militarism and the destruction of our country and its beloved peoples. I'm not sure how you came to believe so passionately that liberals support any of those things.

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  • Phil VeerkampDecember 31, 2012 - 10:05 am

    Cookie, my private, vicious working hypothesis based upon years of studying Hildabeast’s speaking cadence and style is that, in consideration of the great variability in cadence and tone, is that she is a valium/prescription drug junkie. She is a Hazelton/NA/AA 12 step candidate. I believe she did in fact fall. But it was not flu related.

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  • James E.December 31, 2012 - 11:16 am

    Any doctors in the house? If memory serves Docs address a clot with a "blaster" drug that attacks and dissolves the clot, and then blood thinners to prevent further clots. Sigh, so many theories about Hillary, speculation gone wild. Speaking of blood clots, my instructor in flight school was named Klots. Yes, of course, we all called him Blood.

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  • James E.December 31, 2012 - 11:19 am

    Evelyn, thank you for the definition of liberal. I'm sure Cookie thanks you too so she can now clean up her act. Sure.

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  • James E.December 31, 2012 - 11:26 am

    Wow, just watched the president using his bully pulpit letting the nation know that the Tea/Republicans are obstructionists. I love the way the Tea/Republicans have painted themselves in a corner. Looks like they will have to get paint on their shoes if they want to get out of the crisis that they themselves created.

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  • Phil VeerkampDecember 31, 2012 - 11:41 am

    Evelyn, Allow me to anticipate how Cookie might respond to your “liberal” observation/inquiry. You offer a definition of liberal that defines “liberal” in terms of aspiration i.e. intent. My antipathy toward “liberal” is based in result – i.e. what “liberal” does. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes yields authoritarian, paralyzing, suffocating, autocratic bureaucracy. views, or dogmas; free from bigotry yields the “Borking” process from uber-liberal Robert Kennedy thus ushering in the character assassination of one of America’s most brilliant Constitutional minds and marks the modern era of truly toxic politics. – Further it spawns the politics of dependency. It reinforces the money laundering unionization of America that funds our own bankrupting pension/SS/Medicare/entitlement economic black hole. The road to hell is paved with liberal good intention. Cookie, jump in.

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  • Phil VeerkampDecember 31, 2012 - 11:46 am

    BOLD OFF

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  • James E.December 31, 2012 - 11:55 am

    Phil, don't get Cookie all agitated. I was hoping she would now realize that we liberals are good guys just trying to save the nation from the filthy rich.

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  • Phil VeerkampDecember 31, 2012 - 12:16 pm

    James, the “filthy rich” are neither the source nor the cure for our - OUR - fiscal imbalance. WE OUTNUMBER THEIR WEALTH.

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  • James E.December 31, 2012 - 12:33 pm

    Phil, the wealth of just one filthy rich family (the Waltons) exceeds the wealth of 43% of all Americans. If we add in the wealth of all filthy rich individuals, I wonder what the percentage would be -- more wealth than 80% of Americans? And, our fiscal balance would be much improved had Bush not suggested his tax cuts, and then paid for our wars and the big pharma giveway for the prescription program by borrowing the money. So, I have to disagree with you, the filthy rich have a great deal to do with our fiscal problems. They are not without sin as you suggest. One more thought about the Waltons -- filthy rich on the backs of their poorly paid workers who did the work resulting in their fortune. Just think, if they had treated their workers fairly, their fortune would be only reduced by a billion or so (chicken feed to them).

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  • Phil VeerkampDecember 31, 2012 - 1:25 pm

    James, I am on track in my retirement to realize more from SS than I paid in. I am on track in my retirement to realize more from Medicare than I paid in. I am on track in my retirement to realize more from PERS than I paid in. I am not turning to Mr. Walton and other “filthy rich” to say, “Thank you”. I am turning to you LIBERALS and unions and vote buyingsonsofab****politicians to say, “Thank you.” It’s a nice ride on this gravy train. Thank you LIBERALS! BTW – There’s a train wreck ahead, but thanks anyway.

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  • Phil VeerkampDecember 31, 2012 - 1:28 pm

    James, I am on track in my retirement to realize more from SS than I paid in. I am on track in my retirement to realize more from Medicare than I paid in. I am on track in my retirement to realize more from PERS than I paid in. I am not turning to Mr. Walton and other “filthy rich” to say, “Thank you”. I am turning to you LIBERALS and unions and vote-buying-politics-of-dependency-politicians to say, “Thank you.” It’s a nice ride on this gravy train. Thank you LIBERALS! BTW – There’s a train wreck ahead, but thanks anyway.

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  • James E.December 31, 2012 - 1:36 pm

    Phil, well, you are certainly welcome. Now, to aid in fiscal austerity, you could send back your Social Security check and go to doctors and pay their full fee, absent from Medicare. In your case, I would however want you to keep your PERS retirement, as it resulted from a contract between you and your employer, implied or actual. And, the train wreck will be abated when we all recognize that our national bills have to be paid even if it's painful. Phil, it just cannot be all guns -- the people need some butter too.

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  • Jack MartinDecember 31, 2012 - 1:48 pm

    Typical, opinion-lacking-fact bloviation from retired Jimmy Carter-era state department flak John Garon. Let's examine. EVERY new aircraft the military has ever brought online has experienced moderate to severe operational issues and has killed test pilots. Every one. Fact: The military now has more operational F-35's (16) than test mules (14), per the attached story link below. And this quote from Chief Test Pilot Al Norman directly contradicts everything Garon purports to know about the F-35: "Finally, Norman, who spent 12 years as a test pilot on the F-22, said the F-35 is "years ahead of where we were with the F-22" at this stage in the program." I'd say "nice try" Garon, but it wasn't. It was a petty, unsourced, attempt to ridicule yet again anything that might fire a bullet. http://defense.aol.com/2012/07/10/dutch-vote-to-kill-jsf-simply-sturm-und-drang-test-pilots-speak/

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  • cookie65December 31, 2012 - 2:41 pm

    Evelyn, etymology is the study of the meaning of words over time. The modern day definition of liberal is the opposite of your understanding. They are extremely limited and not in the least open minded. Look at the endless attacks against anyone who opposes even the smallest doctrine they subscribe to in lockstep. What did they do to Sarah Palin, Mitt Romney, Alan West, Clarence Thomas, Robert Bork, George Bush, Ronald Reagan, or any one of countless others who offer ideas contrary to theirs. They are nothing short of authoritarian. 800+ new laws in California take effect tomorrow to go along with the 10’s of thousands of others. Who runs California again? Obama has instituted over 11,000 pages of new regulations since 2009. Is that progress? The classic liberal questioned all authority the modern liberal craves all authority. They are the most intolerant people in this country. The big tent is groupthink. It is diversity in everything but thought. Would you call Mr. Garon open minded? Would call Barbara Boxer open minded? How about Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi? How do they treat anyone who opposes them? Harry Reid stood on the senate floor and accused a private citizen of the United States of being a 10 year tax cheat because he opposed him politically while the head of the treasury IS a tax cheat. I use the term liberal in the most derogatory way because it is the polar opposite of liberty and is the enemy of freedom. Liberalism and progress are mutually exclusive. Modern day liberalism needs what capitalism creates to even exist while strangling the life out of capitalism and blaming it for everything. Liberalism creates nothing it only feeds off the efforts of others.

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  • cookie65December 31, 2012 - 2:46 pm

    A shorter version. The foundation of modern day liberalism is the redistribution of wealth. If you take other peoples money away what is left. It is reaping without sowing. A lie in its very inception.

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  • James E.December 31, 2012 - 2:55 pm

    Cookie, I hope you haven't forgotten -- I want your money.

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  • James E.December 31, 2012 - 2:58 pm

    Cookie, now that (forget his name) is no longer running for president, he could release his 10 years tax returns and prove Reid a liar. Might even be able to sue Reid if Reid is the one lying.

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  • EvelynDecember 31, 2012 - 3:03 pm

    Thank you, Cookie. I have studied linguistics and am familiar with the etymology of words. Please could you give a reputable citation supporting your understanding of liberal.

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  • cookie65December 31, 2012 - 3:10 pm

    Evelyn, log onto huffingtonpost, read the comments and try and find anything that resembles your understanding of liberal.

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  • Phil VeerkampDecember 31, 2012 - 3:36 pm

    The etymology of "liberal" is a useless study. Liberal is not an adjective. Liberal is not a noun. Liberal is a verb. It is interchangeable with the “f” word that rhymes with duck. Use: Our society is liberaled. – Old definitions fall to present reality. The definition cited further up this thread is quaint, nice, nostalgic and totally irrelevant to the liberal deed reality. Our economy is liberaled.

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  • DB SmithDecember 31, 2012 - 3:50 pm

    Evelyn, I apologize but I'm in a hurry. To me... Liberalism = Disease! All diseases do not come with a cure or understanding. We just keep trying our best to live with this disease until hopefully at sometime we'll be able to cure it. It absolutely is one of the most disgusting diseases. Hope everyone has a good "NEW YEAR"!

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  • EvelynDecember 31, 2012 - 4:05 pm

    Sorry, Cookie, but Huffington Post has nothing that interests me. Is that the best you can offer as a credible citation?

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  • cookie65December 31, 2012 - 4:13 pm

    Evelyn, huffington post is the essence of modern day liberalism in their own words. Their own thoughts and modivations. If you can't take what they have to offer over there you may agree with me more than you know. It it worship hall for their religion.

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  • cookie65December 31, 2012 - 4:16 pm

    The latest on the coattail diplomat. She has a blood clot between her brain and skull. Isn't that what they treated Ron Brown and Vince Foster for?

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  • EvelynDecember 31, 2012 - 4:20 pm

    Cookie, on more than one occasion I've said we share many common understandings. If Huffington Post calls themselves liberal then that is a corruption. If you are a serial rapist (I'm not suggesting you are!) and call yourself a good citizen I retain the right to disagree with you.

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  • Phil VeerkampDecember 31, 2012 - 4:22 pm

    Cookie, I do not believe you. It is impossible to have a tampon that far off the mark.

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  • EvelynDecember 31, 2012 - 4:23 pm

    I am a liberal and you are disgusting.

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  • cookie65December 31, 2012 - 4:24 pm

    Evelyn, there are many sources other than liberalism itself as evidence to how destructive it is. Here is one of my favorite writers on economics and the downward trend of society because of liberalism. http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/

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  • DB SmithDecember 31, 2012 - 4:28 pm

    It appears to me that there could there be different levels of "disgusting".

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  • Paddy O'furnitureDecember 31, 2012 - 4:32 pm

    Cookie, Walter Williams is one of the most intelligent, common sense (different things) thinkers of our time. He is truly a treasure to Conservatism.

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  • cookie65December 31, 2012 - 4:44 pm

    Evelyn, is Chris Matthews of pmsnbc a better representative of modern day liberalsim? He is worshipped by the left. He is anything but tolerant or open minded. How about Piers Morgan? Did you see how he treated someone who he disagreed with? How do you reach a compromise with people like that? By the way I have been booted from huffpo 4 times for having a diverse point of view that didn't mesh with theirs. I currently have over 1,100 fans there but I haven't been to the site since July. I am no where as civil when them as I am here.

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  • EvelynDecember 31, 2012 - 4:46 pm

    Cookie: One of William's recommended websites is LewRockwell.com. Linked there is the following video: ARE YOU A TARGET OF GOVERNMENT MIND-CONTROL? HERE What did you think of it?

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  • EvelynDecember 31, 2012 - 4:50 pm

    Cookie: It's useless asking me about the bona fides of any of the mainstream (controlled) media. (1) I don't have TV. (2) I don't have TV for a reason.

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  • cookie65December 31, 2012 - 4:54 pm

    Phil, they are reporting it is behind her right ear so maybe she thought it was a Q-Tip. Or maybe billy had to tight of a grip on her ears..

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  • EvelynDecember 31, 2012 - 4:55 pm

    Sorry, I botched the link at 4:46 pm. Try this: http://lewrockwell.com/ventura/govt-mind-control-target.html

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  • EvelynDecember 31, 2012 - 4:57 pm

    Are you modeling "conservative" values for us?

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  • Phil VeerkampDecember 31, 2012 - 4:59 pm

    STOP! ! ! You ARE disgusting. And here I thought Evelyn was talking about me.

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  • cookie65December 31, 2012 - 5:02 pm

    Evelyn, you don't need a tv. I personally haven't watched any media in nearly 10 years. Anything you want to know about what the talking heads are saying is on the internet. If you believe that the media isn't telling people what to believe and thereby exercising some control over them you overestimate the average intellect of the media viewers in this country. Look at the lie of global warming. How many people are convinced the science is "settled". When in reality there is no such thing as a "settled" science. Especially one involving one of the most complex systems humans will ever encounter, our atmosphere and climate. But they just keep repeating it for the dumbdown masses.

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  • EvelynDecember 31, 2012 - 5:09 pm

    Cookie: Sometimes I wonder why we write when somehow we seem to keep talking past one another. Did you miss my reference to the mainstream (controlled) media? It is all controlled. We do agree on that. You have given me Williams as a reference. In response, I asked you about an item from one of his recommended websites. Did you miss my question? (I'm off now. Need some R&R!) Happy New Year!!!

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  • cookie65December 31, 2012 - 5:15 pm

    Jesse Ventura has some rather interesting conspiracy theories. Some of them may be true. How many minds did the nazi's control? And they were using primitive technology compared to what we have today. Of course what Goebbels proved effective is still used today. The nazi's taught the german's that all their problems where the fault of the Jews and the leftists in this country have taught millions that their problems are the fault of the rich.

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  • cookie65December 31, 2012 - 6:17 pm

    Dianne Feinstein on the authority of liberals. http://www.infowars.com/video-dianne-feinstein-says-prepare-to-turn-in-your-guns/ Eric Holder on brainwashing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nM0asnCXD0

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  • EvelynDecember 31, 2012 - 7:15 pm

    Cookie: "Dianne Feinstein on the authority of liberals"??? The word "liberal" is not in that clip. Nor is Feinstein a liberal. She is, however, a Democrat. Are you saying Democrat = liberal?

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  • Phil VeerkampJanuary 01, 2013 - 4:43 am

    directed to Cookie - . . . I asked you about an item from one of his recommended websites. Did you miss my question? . . . Evelyn, you offered a broken link - "page not found" - check your link and verify that Cookie could not have arrived at your desired destination. I examined the text of the link and discovered the error. I visited the site.LINK - Are You a Target of Government Mind-Control? Jesse Ventura uncovers the brain invasion conspiracy Rubbish. It is however curious that one would be proactively self protective from the controlled media while freely browsing from Jessie Ventura-truTV.

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  • Phil VeerkampJanuary 01, 2013 - 5:01 am

    Observation on “liberal” – Propping up “liberal” on a dictionary definition may actually be worse than selling LINK - Thalidomide to help pregnant women with the effects of morning sickness. Good intention => nightmarish results. Disgusting indeed.

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  • cookie65January 01, 2013 - 7:44 am

    Evelyn, there seems to be some disconnect between your definition of liberal and the liberals themselves. They believe wealth is spread thru confiscation. Everything the stand for is based on that premise. As I said go to huffington post and see for yourself if you agree with their sentiments on the direction this country should be heading in. They are self discribed radical liberals. They hate everyone. If you believe wealth is spread by creating more of it then you are something other than a liberal. I didn't change the definition, they did. Dianne Feinstein is a liberal. Why else would she have such disregard for the Constitution? If you don't like what the term liberal has come to mean don't blame me. Blame the communists that have hijacked the democrat party and caused the term liberal to mean the opposite of liberty, tolerance, diversity, compassion, freedom, self-determination, self-reliance, privacy and all the other things that stand between them and conquering a free people and making them subjects of government. You didn't tell me what liberalism creates or produces.

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 8:09 am

    Phil: Yes, link was broken. SEE: Evelyn December 31, 2012 - 4:55 pm Sorry, I botched the link at 4:46 pm. Try this: http://lewrockwell.com/ventura/govt-mind-control-target.html ********** The referenced item came from one of Cookie's "favorite websites" (4:24 pm).

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 8:17 am

    Cookie, Dianne Feinstein could call herself a house. That doesn't make her one! The term has been corrupted. I'm surprised you hang out at HufPo, a Soros funded (controlled) website.

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  • cookie65January 01, 2013 - 8:25 am

    Evelyn, Dr. Walter E. Williams is one of my favorite writers. I made no such statement regarding anything about a "website" other than his homepage. If a link to a link to a link somehow discredits all that Dr. Williams has accomplished then maybe you are a lib. Out of all the stuff there you single out some random jesse ventura conspiracy theory which was not linked to Dr. William but to a site which he linked for other reasons. I would imagine if a link to a link to a link is the standard by which we measure the usefulness of the original information then we can discount every single website on the internet. I have perhaps a very telling simple definition of modern day liberalism... With the entire country suffering under the obama regime and all of his economic policies, obama has issued an executive order giving all of Washington DC a pay raise.

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  • cookie65January 01, 2013 - 8:35 am

    There is a purpose for my time on sites like huffpo. People like me are the only exposure the loons ever get to reality. I think of it as growing corn. All you have to do is plant it. Then come back once in a while and water it. The truth has a life of its own. The mind is a funny thing it has the ability to capture and process things whether the individual is responsive to it or not. Do you suppose it is possible that Hitlery had a sudden attack of conscientiousness which caused a blood vessel to burst?

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 8:36 am

    Cookie: Knowing who people admire provides information about who they are and what they value. So of course I checked out the company Williams keeps. I will agree to allow you to use words as you wish and set standards as you see fit. That does not mean I must adopt your standards. I have been commenting here for a number of months now, providing plenty of material for you to judge me by. Pick whatever one single word you deem most suitable to sum up who you think I am. This conversation is going nowhere!

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  • cookie65January 01, 2013 - 9:09 am

    I don't judge you. It was you who identified yourself as a liberal and then attempted to claim that all the libs and what they stand for aren't libs. As I said, they define themselves.

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 9:12 am

    Impasse

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  • Phil VeerkampJanuary 01, 2013 - 10:39 am

    Cookie - Evelyn: I went to Walter williams' home page - LINK - Walter Williams Home Page I found no Jessie Ventura links. Do either of you have the link to Williams that produced the "guilt-by-association" Jessie Ventura link?

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  • Phil VeerkampJanuary 01, 2013 - 11:42 am

    Cookie – Evelyn – Never mind. I got it. From Walter Williams’ home page I went to his “Recommended Websites”. Within Mr. Williams’ ~40 recommendations I found the Lou Rockwell site. On the left side of Rockwell’s home page is a list of a dozen or so links amongst which “columnists” appears. If one goes to Mr. Rockwell’s “columnists” links we find links to over 200 “columnists” amongst which Jessie Ventura can be found. I had to work at it. But it came so easily to Evelyn. Liberals must have a special gene that guides them in their journey to discredit conservatives . . . or a play book handy reference guide. They think that they are free. But are they actually guided/controlled?

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  • cookie65January 01, 2013 - 11:43 am

    Phil, as you know I hide behind nothing and leave nothing to doubt about where I stand on issues political, social and economic. I have found during this exchange with Evelyn that any attempt to establish a core position from her on anything is like trying to shovel jello with a pitchfork. Like you said, some nice references to nostalgia.

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 12:37 pm

    Cookie65: Strictly speaking it's not true when you say "I hide behind nothing."

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 12:38 pm

    Declaration: I'm now a Huffington Post aficionado. For in-depth news and analysis it’s certainly up to the standards of grocery store check-out stand rags. Having done a quick – albeit SELECTIVE -- survey, I can report the presence, as @ 12:22 pm Pacific 1/1/2012, of this random sampling of headline grabbers: • Are Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie going to marry? • What about Kate Hudson and Amy Adams: going to marry their baby daddies? • Trump Slams Republicans • Lynn Forester de Rothschild: “18 Million Prayers for Hillary” • Beauty Queen ‘Shocked’ by Ruling in Miss USA Case • Lots of “Fiscal Cliff” stuff • Scientology Reportedly Has ‘Alien Space Cathedral’ • Anderson Cooper Gets Embarrassed • Michael Moore’s New Year’s Resolutions ********** Is this where Cookie does her outreach to the dumbed down masses/loons. “I think of it as growing corn. All you have to do is plant it.” ~ Cookie65

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  • James E.January 01, 2013 - 12:49 pm

    Just a random observation in the Evelyn, Cookie, and Phil around and around: Evelyn is reasonable, Cookie has gone off the edge, and Phil, while conservative, is salvageable and has the potential to be a reasonable person.

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  • cookie65January 01, 2013 - 12:59 pm

    Just an example of two of the thousands of comments from huffpo on the main story. The fiscal cliff. Sabrae Talk to the paws. . 1681 Fans . 4 seconds ago ( 3:53 PM) Now for a piece of legislation that makes the House obsolete. Permalink | Share it . HUFFPOST SUPER USER Dw Skinner . 825 Fans . 11 seconds ago ( 3:53 PM) Nothing more worthless than a republican.

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  • cookie65January 01, 2013 - 1:03 pm

    Isn't it refreshing to know what your fellow liberals are fed as news?

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  • Phil VeerkampJanuary 01, 2013 - 1:32 pm

    James, that's WAY over the top. Take it back. IMMEDIATELY!

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  • cookie65January 01, 2013 - 1:33 pm

    Evelyn, I am not sure how you could be confused about my views political, social or economic. James has no doubt about them. He calls me unreasonable. As if the left can be negotiated with on anything. Let me attempt put any misunderstanding you have to rest. Liberalism, leftism, socialism, progressivism, communism, Marxism or any other version of the redistribution of wealth thru confiscation and central government planning is pure evil. There is nothing admirable about any part of it. It creates poverty and misery. Every facet of it is dependent on wealth created by others. It creates nothing, it produces nothing. It feeds off the destruction of people and freedom. It is trickle up poverty, equally shared misery. It destroys education and thinking. Liberty is its enemy. It is total corruption of any system of values. I could go on but it would be a waste of cyber ink. Winston Churchill summed it up nicely, “The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.”

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  • Phil VeerkampJanuary 01, 2013 - 1:39 pm

    Making a repeat appearance as word of the day - eristic - LINK - eristic

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 1:39 pm

    Honestly, I don't know why you waste your time at Huffington Post, cookie65 whose name we do not know, though you maintain you “hide behind nothing”. The planting you see yourself doing will never bear edible fruit. Besides, new shoots don't thrive when trampled upon. Or is it only here, among trusted friends, that you speak of others as "dumbed down masses" and "loons"?

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 1:40 pm

    One last time, cookie65, Diane Feinstein is NOT a true liberal, nor is Huffington Post, regardless of the fact that they have appropriated the word. Unashamedly, I stand on the following: ”Liberalism first became a distinct political movement during the Age of Enlightenment. It rejected the notions, common at the time, of hereditary privilege, state religion, absolute monarchy, and the Divine Right of Kings. The early liberal thinker John Locke is often credited with founding liberalism as a distinct philosophical tradition. Locke argued that each man has a natural right to life, liberty and property and according to the social contract governments must not violate these rights. Liberals sought to replace absolutism in government with democracy and the rule of law.”

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 1:45 pm

    George W Bush ALSO was not a liberal. Following: GOP leaders told Bush that his hardcore push to renew the more onerous provisions of the act could further alienate conservatives still mad at the President from his botched attempt to nominate White House Counsel Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court. "I don't give a goddamn," Bush retorted. "I'm the President and the Commander-in-Chief. Do it my way." "Mr. President," one aide in the meeting said. "There is a valid case that the provisions in this law undermine the Constitution." "Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back. "It's just a goddamned piece of paper!" ********** http://tinyurl.com/9d8fw

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  • Phil VeerkampJanuary 01, 2013 - 1:51 pm

    Ahhh, yes! Our Founding Fathers gave us such an arrangement. Conservatives attempt to, well, conserve that liberal accomplishment. Liberals attempt to overturn our Founding Fathers' "liberal" gift.

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 1:58 pm

    So what is it EXACTLY that you're rejecting, liberalism, or the way in which it's been besmirched? Do you not believe in the rule of law? What is it about a natural right to life, liberty and property that offends you?

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 2:00 pm

    . . . and, BTW, does George W. Bush typify your model "Conservative"?

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 2:05 pm

    We've gone on for a long time about liberalism. How about a change? Cookie65, Phil Veerkamp, anyone else wishing to join in: WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A CONSERVATIVE?

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  • James E.January 01, 2013 - 2:25 pm

    Phil, you should appreciate that a liberal considers you in such light.

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  • DeeJanuary 01, 2013 - 3:25 pm

    Evelyn, Here are the basics of political consrvatism-----Political conservatism is a term applied to people who believe in: •Economic liberty and the central role of free enterprise in American society •A small, non-invasive government •A strong national defense focused on protection and the fight against terrorism .Following the dictums of the Constitution .Equality under the law.----It is a philosophy of governing that ensures freedom and individual rights. Happy New Year!

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 3:39 pm

    Dee: Thank you. Truly. Defining ourselves by principles is much more useful than defining ourselves by what we hate.

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  • cookie65January 01, 2013 - 4:24 pm

    My argument and position is not based on my identity or your identity. Ever notice the sculpture in this country that represents justice? It is referred to as “Lady Justice” or “Blind Justice” because it is wearing a blindfold. My arguments are based on ideology and the outcome and results of ideology. A philosophy of the pursuit of happiness versus a philosophy of dependence. The left attempts to tie everything to a person’s identity. They feel it gives them an advantage. They have even attempted to shield obama from any criticism because of his identity. When my identity, race, ancestry, background, education, gender, religion or any other of the thing the left uses to separate people into groups are concealed it makes my position and argument the point and not anything else. Something that is apparently a problem for you. I am curious who in government represents you since all the liberals are not liberals according to you. No one in government represents me because no one in government is anti-leftist. They all think government is the center of the universe in one form or another. And Bush was no conservative.

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 4:47 pm

    Very simply, Cookie65, nobody in government represents me. By now you should know that. Time and again I have said that at the top BOTH parties have sold out (or words to that effect). And I think for people like you and me to be taking pot shots at one another on the basis of some notion of there being "two sides" is counterproductive. There is a vast world of American opinion and fundamental interest that is served by NEITHER "SIDE". The politicians do not serve the people of this country, though there may be a few honorable serving politicians. Those, however, will be marginalized. There is so much gatekeeping that our vision has become limited. Issues formerly we could talk about have become “dangerous” and off limits. Political discourse (the 2012 elections, for example) is a charade. As for “liberals” and “conservatives”, both are of value. When I declare myself a liberal I am not being pejorative about conservatives. Life never is simply one thing or the other. Life is too complex to define as all red, or all blue, if you know what I mean. And you are right; George Bush is not a Conservative. Nor is Dianne Feinstein a liberal!

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  • Paddy O'furnitureJanuary 01, 2013 - 5:07 pm

    Evelyn, Dee gave you a pretty good summation of Political Conservatism, I'll give you the definition of Practical Conservatism; Live and Let Live. Conservatives want to be left alone. We don't want to be dictated to or over-governed. There's a saying that includes phrases like "If a conservative doesn't like meat, they become vegetarians. If a liberal doesn't like meat, that don't want ANYbody to eat meat". "If a conservative doesn't like guns, they don't own them. If a Liberal Doesn't like guns, they don't want ANYbody to own them." And lefties try to make it sound as though conservatives need their governance in order to keep us from burning tires in our wood stoves and dumping raw sewage in the city pool. Nonsense. We want clean air and water as much as anyone else does. We want to manage our forests and lands and environment as responsibly as anyone. Liberalism is about little dictatorships; down at the county and local levels. Conservatism is about taking responsibility for your own actions and living with the consequences, not running from them. Did you know that in our county, you must get a permit (beg for permission) to cut down an oak tree on your own property that is greater than 6 inches in diameter? How about in New York where Mayor Bloomberg is attempting to save obese people form themselves by limiting the size of soda they can buy to 16 oz? This is the essence of nanny-state liberalism. Leave me alone and let me learn and discover what's good for me. I'll make a mistake or two, but I'll be better for it afterward. Liberals can't stand to see people think for themselves.

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 5:36 pm

    Paddy: Thanks! There's a lot of craziness going on, and you've identified some of it. What an interesting discussion we could have, all sitting down together. I don't agree with Mayor Bloomberg. I strongly support thinking for ourselves. In the past several days I've posted massively on matters pertaining to gun control, so there should be no mystery there. ********** INPUT ON CONSERVATISM (modify at will) : ”The history of American conservatism has been marked by tensions and competing ideologies. Economic conservatives and libertarians favor small government, low taxes, limited regulation, and free enterprise. Social conservatives see traditional social values as threatened by secularism; they tend to support school prayer and capital punishment and oppose abortion and the legalization of same-sex marriage. Neoconservatives want to expand American ideals throughout the world and show a strong support for Israel. Paleoconservatives stand in opposition to multiculturalism, and press for restrictions on immigration. Most conservatives prefer Republicans over Democrats, and most factions favor a strong foreign policy, a strong military, and strong support for Israel. Other modern conservative beliefs include opposition to a world government (a view shared with many anti-globalists on the political left), skepticism about the importance or validity of various environmental issues, the importance of self-reliance instead of reliance on the government to solve problems, support for the state of Israel, support for prayer in the public schools, opposition to gun control, opposition to embryonic stem cell research, support for a strong Law and Order policy, strict enforcement of the law, and long jail terms for repeat offenders.”

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  • Jethro McSwiftJanuary 01, 2013 - 6:26 pm

    If there's gonna be a slumber party I'll bring a possum.

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  • James E.January 01, 2013 - 6:30 pm

    This thread has become Philosophy 101 and boring. However, to each his own. Now, I could tell you about the possum that scared me in my backyard but that would be boring too.

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  • Jethro McSwiftJanuary 01, 2013 - 6:37 pm

    Risk it! Share yer possum story. If ya do I'll tell ya'll 'bout possum innards

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  • MikeJanuary 01, 2013 - 6:47 pm

    Although it is not true that all conservatives are average people,it is true that most average people are conservative. When their not engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

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  • DeeJanuary 01, 2013 - 6:56 pm

    Mike, what are you trying to say?

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  • Jethro McSwiftJanuary 01, 2013 - 6:58 pm

    Mike, that's sweeter 'n possum bile. Wanna go huntin' with me an' th' boys?

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  • EvelynJanuary 01, 2013 - 7:19 pm

    James, this "thread" has evolved pretty much by chance. You're a leader. Possibilities: input/change the direction/start another thread. The holiday season is ending; people will return; things will get to normal. There's hope!

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  • Jethro McSwiftJanuary 01, 2013 - 7:25 pm

    Evelyn, you didn't ask about James' possum.

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  • RichardJanuary 01, 2013 - 8:21 pm

    Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a Republican. But I repeat myself.

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  • MikeJanuary 01, 2013 - 8:37 pm

    No thanks Swiftboat, I’ve got more ears than I need for a good collection. Sounds like your a sissy boy........

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  • EvelynJanuary 05, 2013 - 5:29 am

    ALL THE PRESIDENT’S WOMEN (PART 3): DIANE FEINSTEIN - HERE

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