Wednesday, April 23, 2014

The environment vs. freedom and wealth


Let’s go back in time to really see what big government has done for us. During the 60s prior to Vietnam you could take your family and travel to the mountains to camp, hunt, fish, gold pan or whatever your pursuit to happiness was. Today, you have to get permits to leave the road, that is if it is open for public use.

They have taken away the right to pursue happiness through the Sierra Fund and its associates. They think that it is better for the public to watch the environment than to utilize it. Our nation could be number one in the world right now if our leaders would open up our country’s natural resources to mining its wealth. North Dakota is thriving; I have a friend that just came back to load the rest of his household and make a permanent move to N.D. because of the freedom that state has to offer. He said there is no one out of work that wants to work and it is all because of the oil and gas exploration that is going on, cities are building new schools, homes, shopping centers, etc. California has the gas, oil, gold and many more possibilities yet the eco freaks stop us from utilizing them all because of their ability to turn green into cash in their pockets. For instance they stopped mining our rivers because of the possibility that mercury would enter our waterways by the use of a suction dredges, yet they have executed an agenda to mine the rivers using our money to the tune of millions of dollars to remove the mercury from the rivers which dredging has been doing for free since the beginning. It has been proven that the ordinary dredge removes 98 percent of the mercury (the same that they state that their equipment is going to do). They also stated the 2 percent that re-enters the rivers is no more than what a heavy rain would move into the rivers; it’s all about the money.

They stopped logging because of habitat for an owl that can live anywhere yet they have closed down millions of acres of timber and mining exploration, they have closed roads so that the public no longer has vehicle access through the power that they possess. According to them they crossed meadows and that the tracks from vehicles made them dry up quicker than normal. So they now have another way to make money, restore the meadows back to original condition at a cost of millions of dollars to the public that is being denied access. What a wonderful way to make a living, screw the people that you work for because they have no way of stopping you, but yet they have to pay you for what you are doing and that is screwing the tax payer and taking away the rights of every taxpaying citizen to further their ability to fatten their pockets at our expense.


Letters to the Editor


Discussion | 75 comments

  • francescaduchamp@att.netJanuary 30, 2013 - 8:28 am

    By shutting down the mill in Camino--they killed our economy in Pollock Pines. We just had a BOS sponsored "town meeting" (where the public voice is important) about our future. It was a salted audience...with "calming" redirection of the truth. But the kicker is when I said it was a lumber town at the timberline... someone said (along with his side kicks) is more than that. that group--you did know that Mr. Pollock was a lumber guy right ? (I am now starting to worry about some of our "leaders " in town) And you can see the connection of the name of where you live. The meeting was so staged it was can see it on channel two--I dont watch TV--but I imagine its cut and spliced. TV is one of the best ways to fool a crowd. The most amazing statement was...sometimes you have to put "history" away...on a back burner...REALLY. Up in Pollock --this was the worse possible thing to say to this audience--hope they do better at the Camino meeting.

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  • francescaduchamp@att.netJanuary 30, 2013 - 8:31 am

    FOR THE YOUNGER AUDIENCE. Several variations of this technique can be found at attention to yours... Are You Being Delphied? The Rand Corporation in the early 1960s developed the Delphi technique for the purpose of maneuvering segments of the public into accepting predetermined government policies. In the 1970s and '80s, it was ideally used to convince land owners of the merits of accepting joining and general plan maps. Now it is being employed to persuade the public to accept outcome-based education and the licensing of all employees, via endorsements in the Certificate of Initial Mastery (CIM) and Certificate of Advanced Mastery (CAM) programs, a.k.a. school-to-work. The goal of the Delphi technique is to lead a targeted group of people to a predetermined outcome, while giving the illusion of taking public input and under the pretext of being accountable to the public. For the Delphi to work, it is critical that the targeted group be kept away from knowledgeable people who could lead them away from the Delphier's predetermined outcome. One variation on the Delphi technique is to use a series of meetings. The attendees are often given a number or a colored card when they enter the room, to determine at which table they are to sit. The purpose of this is to break up the groups of potentially knowledgeable people who arrive together so that they will be sitting with strangers and therefore be subdued. Typically, at each table is a facilitator, someone who will know which way to help "steer" the group. Usually the people at each table are instructed to answer among themselves some of the questions and arrive at a table consensus. Someone is chosen to speak for the table, most of the time it is the person who has been secretly pre-briefed about the desired Delphi outcome. The table spokesperson is the only one allowed to address the podium and the others have little opportunity to address the podium or the crowd directly. Anyone knowledgeable enough, or brave enough, to speak out in opposition will not be welcomed. Often they are told from the podium, "We don't have time to discuss that now," or "We discussed that on another date," or “We can discuss that after the meeting.” They will attempt to quiet, isolate, and discredit dissenters. After attending the Delphi meeting, participants may feel uneasy that they are in disagreement with the apparent majority. The Delphi technique is often successful in bluffing people into submission. Don't let them succeed. Call their bluff.

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  • cookie65January 30, 2013 - 8:35 am

    I have asked a simple question many times in many different forums over several years to the liberals and have never recieved an answer. Name 3 things you can do that the government has not involved itself in in one form or another? The environMENTAL movement is like unions, civil rights and many other things the left uses for political power and reduced liberty. They began with legitimate purpose, became a business and have devolved into a racket.

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  • francescaduchamp@att.netJanuary 30, 2013 - 8:39 am

    By the way--the spotted owl is doing well...and the best people to take care of our environment up here...are the farmers (who have been watching over our land since the beginning of our human history of agriculture) and the lumber people who take care of their resources to survive. Bringing in a "resort" shown and proved in the environment stats on South Lake Tahoe--ruined their environment. We are not them. I trust farmers,loggers,and ranchers as responsible caretakers of the land up here and in this county--more than any group that does not allow for freedom of speech. (shaking head) We love our area--love the tourists that visit...allow the people-who know what they are doing run the land.

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  • francescaduchamp@att.netJanuary 30, 2013 - 8:50 am

    cookie65...I am responding to the mill closing down and the way our town meeting was set up. I was insulted for my friends. Three things...first I thought birth...but a certificate is required. Then I thought marriage--certificate. needs a number to do that...I think people know this--no matter what your political view is. I came up with ..picking wild flowers..skipping rocks... and smiling at a friend. I am smiling at you...I love watching all of you banter. Debating is so healthy--right now being on-line...debating across the world...what a gift. (this does not reflect my political views--it supports my human observations)

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  • cookie65January 30, 2013 - 8:59 am

    In southern Oregon the entire region used to be blanketed with small communities, families, schools, business' and prosperity. All dependent on the logging industry, the stuff people build houses with. The environmentalists came in and outlawed the logging industry and now all you find is meth labs. The epa is the single most dispicable form of government ever concieved of in a represtative republic. It has destroyed nearly as many lives as liberalism.

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  • cookie65January 30, 2013 - 9:06 am

    Those wild flowers may be protected, in the deserts in New Mexico there are signs letting you know it is a crime to remove any vegetation of any kind. Skipping rocks? You might want to get permission from Fish and Game. Currently the state of California licenses 177 professions compared with states like Texas which licenses 52. Smiling at a freind, even that can have some implications. That is my point though. The insanity is now in our daily lives.

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  • cookie65January 30, 2013 - 9:11 am

    Frances, your point about the lumber people taking care of our resources. Try explaining that to an indoctinated leftist. They adamantly believe that the lumber industries long term success plan is to deforest the country. And put themselves out of business.

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  • James E.January 30, 2013 - 9:16 am

    Cookie, your anti-government rants are tiresome. Just want to let you know if you aren't aware. Now, in response to this constructive criticism, I'm sure we will get another anti-government rant -- because it's all you have.

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  • cookie65January 30, 2013 - 9:17 am

    Agreed on the ability to communicate with the internet. I think the internet is the single greatest tool to preserve freedom since the invention of black powder. It causes some to be exposed to reality that they would otherwise never been exposed to. On these forums people can expose the bias in the media to thousands of people who would just normally accept what they are told to believe.

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  • francescaduchamp@att.netJanuary 30, 2013 - 9:18 am

    I can see the points made. I have watched this town die--it is very sad...watching families walk from their homes with their kids. Its sad to listen to builders...they cant afford this counties fees. It is sad to watch groups of people lead to a pool of words to be drown. I believe in the people that I have met--the people who have worked this land--been polite to visitors...I hope with all my being that some one in government watches and takes responsibility. A friend--whose relative was one of the first volunteer fireman up here-got up and walked out of the meeting. (her head was held high--she is not a submissive--and she will remember how her relatives and their history is being treated) I believe in our "living" constitution. I honor that I can speak my mind--without being shot. I love that I can look out my window and see nature--instead of bombs. But some get greedy under any government umbrella--what our local government did at our meeting was so wrong. The people who are now my new "enemies" such tunnel vision--that I went against the their thoughts. I have no answers. I love nature--and try to respect it. But I also love people--and the stress created by people who knew what would I can only hope that I can teach my grandson to be a givng human--that respects his fellow man. And can learn to honor our resources. He goes to a horse camp up here (the Saddle Club) he is learning to respect and care for a very large spirited animal. He has learned to feed, clean , identify simple illness s of a noble creature. Someday he will learn to fish and hunt. Because no matter what evil there is or isnt in government--I want him to survive. I want more for him. Government has its place. Some of our leaders, here are caring--some are really losing their grip on what it is to be human. I dont know. Honestly I just dont know.

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  • cookie65January 30, 2013 - 9:36 am

    James, "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one."-Thomas Paine. Tell me James why you feel the need to have government rule every aspect of our lives? Are you incapable of making choices respective of your fellow man and community and environment with out some educated idiot bureaucrat watching over you? The government expands only through shrinking the individual. His freedoms, his liberty, his independence, his pursuit of happiness. Those who believe they are more qualified to make all your choices for you have no respect for you or your ability to self-govern. And you say "bring it on", one less thing I need to be responsible for. Sorry James, I wasn't raised by people like that. I am understanding a little more clearly why you said we are all the product of our experiences.

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  • James E.January 30, 2013 - 9:39 am

    Oh, Cookie, there you go again.

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  • Rob AndersenJanuary 30, 2013 - 9:51 am

    Reading this letter and the comments, I am extremely grateful for a strong, organized environmental movement that keeps yahoos like these from doing whatever they please regardless of the damage they cause. I am also grateful that they are a tiny minority, no matter how many times they comment.

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  • cookie65January 30, 2013 - 10:07 am

    James, I will accept your non-answer as an answer.

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  • James E.January 30, 2013 - 10:16 am

    Cookie, silence is not concurrence. It may be non-interest.

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  • cookie65January 30, 2013 - 10:26 am

    Rob, I understand how much simpler it is to be told what to believe than to struggle with doing any of your own thinking but let me share with you one simple observation that comes from 7th grade science. We exist on a rotating sphere with a tilted axis in an elliptical orbit around a fluctuating heat source. In a universe where the norm is extreme cold. Absolute zero on the kelvin scale at -460degrees farenheit. Periodically the planet we exist on warms up enough for life to exist. Occasionally even for life to flourish. Imagine what happens when every single year we go from winter to spring. Life explodes. And the people who do your thinking for you have you afraid of it. Imaging being so willing to believe them that you accept the idea that we can control the weather. Imagine North America being more like Hawaii and you are afraid of it. If you don't believe me try growing a tomato in the permafrost. And you do believe we can control the weather. You believe that man by man's activities is causing the climate to change. What is that if not controlling the weather? To add insult to injury you also believe that we can "fix" it. What is that if not controlling the weather? Imagine what we could do if we could control the weather.

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  • francescaduchamp@att.netJanuary 30, 2013 - 10:27 am

    Rob Andersen...I am sure you are a good person. If you are referring to where I live--you must not know any one who actually worked at the mill...trees are still going out---just off the hill. The larger lumber families--still here as well as in Camino. If you are not adressing my place of residence and are planted--shame on you. If you are a person of concern... a friend from the meeting just came--there is a second meeting the 25th. You are invited by me. please drive through these places first--to see how people take care of their farms, ranches, properties. Main street towards town--is mostly owned by people who do not live here, or come here, or care. I look forward to meeting you. Yahoos...nice...lolololol

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  • cookie65January 30, 2013 - 11:09 am

    Frances, people like Rob have a bunch of nonsence in their brains that they believe passes for education. For example he has been taught to believe that anyone who questions the global warming fraud is guilty of not wanting clean air and water. He is totally clueless how many generations have cared for and preserved the wild lands prior to his existance and in his limited understanding believes that we humans can only harm.

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  • chrispytahoeJanuary 30, 2013 - 3:54 pm

    Uh.. the EPA was founded by Richard Nixon. A Republican. Without someone looking out for the environment things kinda fall apart. Have you ever been to Bejing?

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  • chrispytahoeJanuary 30, 2013 - 4:03 pm

    3 things the government does not control: My dreams. My bodily functions. My actions. There are plenty more. Ha! There chew on that.

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  • Paddy O'furnitureJanuary 30, 2013 - 4:08 pm

    Crisped, only in your dreams does the government NOT control a goodly number of your actions AND your bodily functions. Think about it.

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  • EvelynJanuary 30, 2013 - 4:11 pm

    chrispy: a) dreams: many have been turned to nightmares; b) bodily functions: much relevant to our bodies has been controlled; however, in one respect you are correct: you still are free to eliminate without seeking permission; c) your actions: hah! you write without thinking.

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  • chrispytahoeJanuary 30, 2013 - 4:19 pm

    Duchump: " I trust farmers ,loggers, and ranchers as responsible caretakers of the land " I had to laugh out loud at that one. You are pretty clueless. Farmers living off the government dole planting unsustainable crops and over fertilizing. Loggers, 175 years of clear cutting. Ranchers, Christ do I need to elaborate on those idiots? And the these same ignorant people purchase expensive homes in the Tahoe Keys. The Tahoe keys is the single biggest environmental catastrophe in California history. That development of homes destroyed the upper Truckee marsh, thus killing Lake Tahoe's clarity. I swear explaining the environment to some of you is like playing cards with my brother’s kids.

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  • EvelynJanuary 30, 2013 - 4:39 pm

    chrispy: You use words like "idiot" and "ignorant" quite freely. My father was a farmer. He was neither an idiot nor ignorant. Nor were any other farming people we knew. They were exceedingly good stewards of the land, NEVER on the government dole, as you seem to think. My father was one of the hardest working people I've met, putting in a ~14 hour day 365 days a year. Literally. As for "explaining the environment", I feel safe in saying you don't know what you're talking about. The government has broken many people's hearts with regulations that drove them out of business. As it happens, that was not the case with my father, but probably only because he died before they had totally regulated him out the ability to make a living.

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  • francescaduchamp@att.netJanuary 30, 2013 - 4:44 pm grandparents were farmers. We have a mix of farmers, coal miners and loggers out of Minnesota. Others were ranchers from Texas. The french side...artists. The Finnish side-farmers. Making fun of my name is very grown-up, Im sure you will impress someone with your knowledge some day.

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  • EvelynJanuary 30, 2013 - 4:47 pm

    Parting shot, chrispy. I think you have an agenda. Would love to know something about your employment history. Care to share? Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps you're just ignorant.

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  • Paddy O'furnitureJanuary 30, 2013 - 5:10 pm

    Crisped, what do you eat? What's your house made of? My guess, you're 100% dependent on farmers, ranchers and loggers, like the rest of America. Did you know that 2% of people in this country grow food for the other 98%? Do you grow anything you consume (pot doesn't count)? When you're independent of these types, then you can criticize. And it appears you know very little about forest management either. You from this area originally? My guess is no; another bay area refugee.

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  • clleaJanuary 30, 2013 - 5:18 pm

    Well, crispy, there ya have it. The High Priestess, Cookie and her band of of ingrates. I really do need another avenue for comic relief. They can really get much nastier if you try to approach their bubble too closely. Don't respond because they have already started frothing and they become possessed and spew hateful ignorance. Find the humor!

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  • Paddy O'furnitureJanuary 30, 2013 - 5:21 pm

    Aaaw gee, cllea, I thought we were being civil now that we found some common ground in our mutual interest in local businesses. Now ya gotta go get all snarky again. Easy come, easy go I guess. ;(

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  • EvelynJanuary 30, 2013 - 5:25 pm

    cllea, please point to the humor in my 4:39 pm comment. And I'd be interested in your rational input.

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  • Tom GibneyJanuary 30, 2013 - 5:26 pm

    Yes...what do you do Chrispy? What is your contribution to society and the environment? Since you are no doubt spending time online looking up things and parroting them(Some sources rather vague but fitting for your mental capacity..) Persoally I haven;t made great strides But I have earned my keep , have calouses on my hands and use common sense(something lacking in the elitist Liberal crowd..or those who say they are "middle of the road"...) Personally I have spent time and money trying to battle environmental zealots like the Sierra club or Center for Bio Diversity or the Sierra Conservation Center. All Tunnel visioned Zealots who think the wilds should be viewed from a distance. I hike, 4 wheel, mountain Bike (Still at age 50..still biking) and spend time cleaning up trails and educating people about leaving no trace. What do you do Chrispy? Have you got calouses on your hands? or are they soft and unscarred.. like you mind?

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  • Tom GibneyJanuary 30, 2013 - 5:32 pm

    And what of you Cllea..? what do you do? Do you look out for your fellow Americans? DO you know of hard work and nurturing the land? Do you know of people who have families, who are even gun owners, who do plumbing and construction and want to keep their land and money from the Govt. and environmentalists? What do you know of struggle by actual Americans who take their hat off during the Star Spangled Banner and even give to the homeless..What do you and CHrispy know of anything aside from what you read on the Internet...???

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  • clleaJanuary 30, 2013 - 7:05 pm

    Mr. Furniture, thank you for not being mean. And, I hope you have checked out the Pville Food Coop.--citizen owned and operated and really supports our local farmers. Mr. Gibney, I am 62 years old and have been a psychiatric nurse for 18 years. I give a great deal in my profession, and have seen what governments can do. I give to the homeless, clothes, blankets, toiletries, shoes, whatever I can collect --sometimes you may see me in the parking lot near Dollar Tree unloading my truck. I am a volunteer for a section of the Senior Center whereby nurses go into the homes of the elderly and/or disabled who call for help, and access and help where I can. I was born and grew up on a 40 acre farm in Iowa. From age 7, up at 4:00am to work, then to school, home and more work, at times missing long stretches of school to help my mom, uncle, and grandpa with the chores until I left for college (full scholarship, no government money). My family still farms, although it has been tough the last few years. I have always had a fruit/vege/flower garden and it does sustain me. I am a gun and rifle owner who is very adept at handling both, as are my sons, and I pledge allegiance to our flag. Mr. Gibney, oh say can you see? I have been recycling for over 20 years and am more of an environmentalist than not. I can see and appreciate both sides on many issues. Mr. Gibney, I know of and have experienced many struggles and I am stronger for it. I am also kinder because of it. What about you Mr. Gibney, I am listening.

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  • EvelynJanuary 30, 2013 - 7:13 pm

    cllea: I await your response to my query to you regarding my 4:39 pm comment. Having admitted to being made a kinder person it's surprising that you found my story "humorous", what with your farming ties and all.

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  • Susie O.January 30, 2013 - 7:23 pm

    Oh, the conspiracy theories abound!!! Agenda 21! The Delphi Technique! The sky is falling! Having worked in government and private firms that use this technique, I was never told to manipulate people, nor did we ever use the information to manipulate people. In fact, information that people gave us at scoping meetings and hearings and visioning processes actually were used in trying to figure out some processes, and ended up in better projects for both the public and the environment. It's NOT a conspiracy, but I realize what county we're in...

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  • EvelynJanuary 30, 2013 - 7:38 pm

    Susie O: You're the only one on this page using the Conspiracy word. Perhaps you could share with us information about specific situations in which you used the Delphi Technique, what the participants understood about it, and which citizen/employment groups they represented.

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  • EvelynJanuary 30, 2013 - 7:44 pm

    BTW: Of course facilitators are not told to manipulate people. The technique itself does the job for them. Many facilitators are themselves not knowledgeable about the origins and intent of Delphi. Investigate for yourself it's development by the Rand Corporation.

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  • clleaJanuary 30, 2013 - 8:00 pm

    Evelyn, I did not think your 4:39 was humorous, but most of them I do. I have to have my humor. When I do lose my humor I become mean and snarly like the to the right of the Tea Party, Cookie followers.

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  • francescaduchamp@att.netJanuary 30, 2013 - 9:03 pm

    Susie O. I was there at that meeting...and it is exactly what they used. I invite you as well to our town meeting Feb.25th @ 6:00 The best part--is the people that I invited knew as well. I have nothing against Mr. Ward--and felt for him that they forgot to tell him that the name on the building is the Pollock Pines Camino Center--right after he had told the Camino guests to just watch. You are welcome to look him up--he is a sales person...using a sales pitch. His job is to move the crowd towards a point of sale. In this instance--he was selling an idea. No conspiracy theories. Its a way to sell. I have a degree in advertising/graphic design...I know when a crowd is being sold on an idea. I trained to sell a product or an idea. lolololol I know what was said to me...and how my answers were "calmly" moved. I know how others felt and saw it to...some key people are losing credibility because of this style of selling. Its a shame--they may have started out with good ideas...but they got power hungry and stomped on toes. Happens.

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  • Paddy O'furnitureJanuary 30, 2013 - 9:16 pm

    cllea, there you go getting snarky again. I suppose it's okay, we all get that way now and again. I haven't been in the co-op in a while buy my daughter is a "shareholder" or whatever it is they call it, having worked there for a while (no longer). I'd like to go in more often. My wife and some friends do though. I appreciate your narrative of your upbringing and past. It's funny; how you can have so much in common with folks and yet be on opposite sides of various issues. I'm not much of a peacemaker (I can be quite cantankerous and even antagonistic when I'm in the mood) but I firmly believe that there are many of us who, if we could drop our labels and affiliations for one hour over a cup of coffee, we'd find that when it comes to how we think in our guts and what we love and believe in, we have more in common than not. Liberal vs conservative, democrat vs republican, right vs left, all labels, some meaning little. I was raised in a staunch union democrat home. My dad thought Ronald Reagan was the antichrist (doooooon't say it). I would have voted for Carter were I old enough. When I left home and started paying my own way, bills, and taxes, and started making my own decisions, I realized what I believed didn't line up with the average democrat. I became a republican. Now, during the last decade or so, I realized what I believe doesn't seem all that republican either. I'm a libertarian in heart, spirit and mind. I don't hardly fit in anywhere in the major groups. Yet, when I talk to folks from all around, I have at least something in common with most everybody. Not everything mind you, (some folks can't be reasoned with or are just plain stupid ;^) but enough to surprise me. I could probably even enjoy a cup of coffee with Colonel Longhofer. Richard and Garon...not sure about. ;^) Time for bed. 3:00AM comes mighty early.

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  • Tom GibneyJanuary 30, 2013 - 9:24 pm

    Cllea...I have done many a thing...I was born of a Liberal democrat writer. Grew up with a family of privilaged intellectuals. I have but a smattering of community college after high school. 6 years of Military service. I write, I shovel, I wrench. A printer for many a year. I reside here in Placerville faced with a touch of unemployment, save for some part time work from the county. I have had my own business as a landscaper in Santa Cruz.. only to be outbid by..lower bidding mexicans. (Crap I am a racist now I suppose..) Spent time following the Greatful Dead in my youth ..homeless for a year even and then some. I have been on the wrong side of the law, the wrong side of the fence, and the wrong side of the choice and by chance. Albiet I am but 50, I recall a time not too long ago when we had accountability and common sense. NOw I see people like our "President" his cabinet his one sided agenda. I see local people like Karen Schambach who are driven to close the Rubicon Trail and the roads to El Dorado Forest using nefarious claims and junk science like the majority of Environmental parasitic useful idiots....I and many otheres actually go out and clean traisl and forests . While these Enviro Zealot organizations full of paper tigers with checkbooks do nothing but whine and marshel lawyers. My credentials...may not be perfect for you...but I will confess,my conservative ideals come from being on the other side of the bars. I was raised in a fortunate family, I unike my siblings took a more 'hands on path' I may not be at the local senior shelter but I am part caregiver for my inlaws. I may not be a farmer, but I fortify those in need at random. I have travelled this country from coast to coast. I have lived in New York,Japan, CT, Chicago and California. Well versed in firearms and crossbows and bows. Cllea, you and the Richards and what other liberal idealist here I am sure have your visons of what America should be. However you might ask yourself...what have your ideals let it become??? Read of Kruschev or Mao or Hitlers Mein Kampf. I have Maos little red book and Mein Kampf. I have Sun Tsus Art of War.. What does it all mean...? It means that I like many others who have conservative ideals probably are more well versed on the idiocy of your ideals than you think....just saying...whew! glad we got that out there I feel so much better now...However I am sure I cannot hold a candle to the grand Col Longhofer.....

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  • James E.January 30, 2013 - 9:56 pm

    Tom, I think you can hold a candle to me any day. Mutual respect over the time we have spent on this site.

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  • Tom GibneyJanuary 30, 2013 - 10:33 pm

    Ah, Mr. Longhofer, I am sure we could rally over a wine with, a few words back and forth. I am sure we would have a fine conversation, find some common ground and even a flirt with the third rail of politics.

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  • Tom GibneyJanuary 30, 2013 - 10:34 pm

    Ah, Mr. Longhofer, I am sure we could rally over a glass of wine with, a few words back and forth. I am sure we would have a fine conversation, find some common ground and even a flirt with the third rail of politics.

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  • Rod KerrJanuary 30, 2013 - 11:45 pm

    James, The Endangered Species Act (ESA) was not ill-conceived in the beginning, but misuse by land developers, greedy conservation interests and the EPA's Orwellian reverse speak, has transformed ESA into the most misused, unjust and unconstitutional abrogation of our civil liberties in U.S. history. Our fundamental right to own and use private property, any property they deem necessary, including legally deeded water has been taken by the EPA. Once your property is designated 'habitat' for some endangered species be it a plant, rat, butterfly or beast, you cannot use it. Hence you cannot sell it at market value, yet you are required to continue paying taxes on it. Current law provides for just compensation of 'takings' under Eminent Domain, but NOT with ESA. Why? Because EPA's gigantic overreach could not be funded. And our congressional leadership (?) in creating the EPA decided it was easier to just take your property.... than give you fair compensation. For you 'envroligionists' out there, MAKE NO MISTAKE, The incremental departure from our Constitution, from any agency... is your loss of freedom.

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  • cookie65January 31, 2013 - 5:21 am

    Cllea Crispy and Ron, out in the southern end of El Dorado county is a little place on the map called Omo Ranch. A couple of generations past there was a lumber mill there. Wetsel-Oviatt Lumber company. It was a community of several hundred people centered around the mill and the logging. They built the mill, the town, the roads, the homes, the post office, the school, the general store, a large mess hall, everything. They planted several trees for everyone they cut down why managing the forest in such a way as to prevent wild fires. They did no clear cutting, they didn't destroy any precious eco-systems, they didn't scar the planet. They raised thier families, provided for the needs of the community and required nothing from the government. Today if you were to drive thru there you would have no clue a lumber mill ever existed there or the town. The school, the post office and a few scattered houses are still there. They moved the mill to Latrobe many years ago and eventually sold it and @ 18,000 acres of forest land to SPI (sierra pacific industries). During there existance they provided jobs, prosperity, pensions, healthcare, stewardship of our resources, the lumber to build homes all over the state and who knows what else (use your limited imaginations). Two things had the greatest effect on their eventual closing. One was some flatlander set the mountain on fire cutting firewood many many years ago and the other was regulations that have been imposed on the lumber industry by people who have never set foot in the forest.

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  • cookie65January 31, 2013 - 5:28 am

    The spotted owl DOES NOT live in the "old growth" forest. Nothing lives in the "old growth" forest because there is no food there. But they repeated it often enough for millions to accept it as fact. Reminds me of global warming.

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  • EvelynJanuary 31, 2013 - 5:42 am

    Cookie: Thank you for both of the above. I did not know the Omo Ranch history. Nor about present inhospitality of "old growth" forest. Solution: cut it all down and insert high density housing!

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  • EvelynJanuary 31, 2013 - 6:07 am

    Now . . . a word on "sustainable" agriculture. ********** Sixty years ago, after World War II, we started industrializing U.S. farming operations through a mix of policy decisions and accidents of history. This method of farming is neither inevitable nor efficient. More to the point, it can’t be sustained. Industrial agriculture treats the farm as a factory, with “inputs” (pesticides, fertilizers) and “outputs” (crops). The end-objective is increasing yields while controlling costs — usually by exploiting economies of scale (i.e. making a lot of one thing, or “monocropping”), and by replacing solar energy and manual labor with machines and petro-chemicals like pesticides and fertilizers. In relying on chemical “inputs,” we have un-learned how to farm. This model of farming is inefficient and does not represent the cutting edge of modern farming. In 1940, we produced 2.3 food calories for every 1 fossil fuel calorie used. By industrializing our food and farming systems, we now get 1 food calorie for every 10 fossil fuel calories used — a 23-fold reduction in efficiency. - HERE

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  • RichardJanuary 31, 2013 - 9:17 am

    Rob, if I may repeat your comment: Reading this letter and the comments, I am extremely grateful for a strong, organized environmental movement that keeps yahoos like these from doing whatever they please regardless of the damage they cause. I am also grateful that they are a tiny minority, no matter how many times they comment.

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  • cookie65January 31, 2013 - 11:11 am

    Richard, you and Rob are both correct about one thing. Ignorance is ALWAYS the majority. In your case you are so lacking that you can't even manage to state your own views in your own words so you are left with repeating Rob's talking points. Of course any views that you could possibly state would have been what someone else told you to believe. Just like Rob's are. If you ever want to know what happen to prosperity and jobs in our country, look in a mirror. It was the work of useful idiots.

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  • cookie65January 31, 2013 - 12:35 pm

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  • cookie65January 31, 2013 - 3:02 pm

    Anyone who needs a cure for insomnia and wants to see what government regulation looks like in a microscale needs to read this. This is in regards to an ADA amendment to the definition of the word "handle" as it is used by Tart Cherry growers in several northeastern and northwestern states.

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  • chrispytahoeJanuary 31, 2013 - 4:39 pm

    What a great thread! Everyone presumes to know everything about everyone! Problems like the environment polarize peoples opinions to the point that folks arrive in one of two camps. And that is pretty sad. Protection of the environment is far more complex than most people realize. It should not be a political issue, but it is. To some of your comments, I grew up on a farm. A big dairy operation with corn and hogs. My uncle was one smart SOB, and he could tell you a thing about what unsustainable farming did to his land. Sorry Frances, I meant no disrespect. I have traveled to both France and Finland and I dig the culture there.

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  • MartinJanuary 31, 2013 - 5:06 pm

    Richard you are the reason that this state is in the state of despair that it is in, if you think for a moment that the EPA is here for the protection of the environment you truly delinquent in smarts. They have one purpose and one purpose only and that is to guarantee their livelihood. They used to do common since type environmental protection but when it became apparent that they would have to start downsizing their organization the felt the need to impede and now they are a powerful independent organization that can and do anything they like. Our government has oversight committees for everything except for the things that they should be overseeing. They put blinders on as long as they can keep getting the backing of organization like Sierra Fund and it associations; EPA has overstepped its calling and we as a nation are paying the price.

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  • chrispytahoeJanuary 31, 2013 - 5:21 pm

    Richard, in responce to your comments...Mine is an Army family. We are being deployed next year to either the African Congo or the Middle East. Me and mine have been to our nations capitol several times. Me and mine have made sacrafices for our country sir. America the Beautifull is MY national anthem sir. I am a gun toting environmentalist! I bet that scares the crap out of some of you. I am thankfull and hopefull that the next generation of Americans is not paranoid and angry and narrowminded as what is on display in this thread.

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  • chrispytahoeJanuary 31, 2013 - 5:31 pm

    Paddy O'furniture: not a bay area refuge. Only been in Eldorado since 88. Grew up on a farm in New England. I have harvested more firewood in ElDo National Forest than you can imagine. I have seen the US forest service and private companies (that shall remain anonymous)destroy and clear cut sensitive areas. I also mine gold. I have witnessed the unnecessary moratorium put on dredging to protect the fish stocks. That’s total BS. And it is all relative no? You look down on the bay residents with a certain level of disdain it appears, we here in Tahoe look down and foothills meth trash in a similar way. And they look at us up here as 'frozen heads'.

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  • EvelynJanuary 31, 2013 - 5:44 pm

    "idiot" "ignorant" "paranoid" "angry" "narrowminded" - pleasure to share the thread with you, chrispy t!

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  • clleaJanuary 31, 2013 - 5:45 pm

    Mr. Furniture, yes, I too know that there is always a common ground between people. Sometimes taking the time to find it is the challenge. Thanks for taking the time. And, yes, for sure finding our political place, also takes living life. Isn't it great?! I didn't grow up in a house of any political or religious ideals. Work and helping those in need in the community is all I knew until I jumped into another world, and the games began :). I appreciated Ronald Reagan. Overall, I thought he was a good President. Today, I don't think he would even be nominated. I am a moderate, looking for ways both sides can come together, but it really has gone beyond politics, but there has to be a way. I value most everyones opinions, and do try to see both sides and agree with some. What I can't tolerate is the far, far right from the Tea Party. They rant, beat people up and bully when someone expresses a difference. My mind recognizes them as not a value to a healthy way of life. These extremists are weak, weak in character and I will try to ignore them. I do love the word "snarky"! I used it today with one of my patients--it couldn't register with her though. :) I will most probably be snarky in the future because I like it! Oh, and Mr. Furniture, you and Richard stop pissing on the bushes! :)) Mr. Gibney, thank you for responding. Your life has been rich with experience and has taught you a lot! You are fortunate.

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  • DB SmithJanuary 31, 2013 - 6:05 pm

    cllea, I'll bet you are Richard's psyc. nurse. If anyone is arrogant, rants and bullies people, it is certainly the liberal media, Obama and his Administration.

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  • EvelynJanuary 31, 2013 - 6:10 pm

    cllea, regarding seeing "both sides" - Commonly we treat reality as though there were but two positions: left/right, liberal/conservative, Republican/Democrat, pro-/anti-, right/wrong, or whatever. In reality, there are many positions that can't be so conveniently pigeonholed. Most commonly we each hold our own opinion or experience to be "correct", generally labeling negatively whatever is not our own. Therein lies the source of much grief, rancor, misunderstanding, and ignorance. Life, experience and truth are not so simple.

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  • EvelynJanuary 31, 2013 - 6:15 pm

    BTW: The "middle way", though safe, is not necessarily optimal. Sometimes "an extremist" is simply someone who has chosen not to play it safe. Most advances come from those who dare to step beyond what is presently known and accepted.

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  • DeeJanuary 31, 2013 - 6:34 pm

    Evelyn-thank you for recognizing that many times those that say they are looking for compromise means forcing the other person to relinquish their core principles. Also, I have discovered for the last few years that it doesn't matter how you try to find common ground the (yes, about to use a political decriptive phrase) the big government Democrats only want capitulation. I no longer can join hands and sing "Kumbaya".

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  • DeeJanuary 31, 2013 - 6:42 pm

    Chrispy-So the rules that interfer with your dredging are "total BS". Well, it is less BS then shutting down an entire industry for the spotted owls. This is an example of your hypocrisy.

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  • cookie65January 31, 2013 - 7:10 pm

    Crispy, the environment is a political issue because the left made it one. How much money has changed hands and how much wealth has been redistributed under the guise of the environment. I would wager that the "environment" has led to one of the largest tranfers of wealth in all of human history. A tunnel to the bank by every definition. If those who have bought into the environmental issues beleive it isn't about money they are only fooling themselves. Let me help you understand one thing. OIL and COAL are produced by this planet and have been since before man existed. They are not polution. They are in fact part of the environment. I can explain it to you in a way even you can understand. Maybe not Richard and Rob. Imagine being a carbon life form believing carbon is a polution.

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  • clleaJanuary 31, 2013 - 7:18 pm

    Feel better? And, of course, our world is only 6 thousand years old.

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  • francescaduchamp@att.netJanuary 31, 2013 - 7:30 pm worries...the Texas side goes all the way back to the original thirteen colonies..along the line--the Irish came aboard. Quite a mix of people living off the land or working with nature. My grandmother (duchamp) stood at 4'11"--toughest woman I have ever known. Farmer. My family are still farmers, loggers and ranchers.

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  • MartinJanuary 31, 2013 - 7:30 pm

    I agree completely our forest land is fine, I believe that you have to have a permit to clear cut so it was within the boundaries of lawful. Shutting down an industry that replants is BS if you look at pictures of the towns around here back in the 1800s not a tree in sight, but today you would never know that they clear cut everything. Nature works in mysterious ways and yes to dredging being banned is total BS that alone took millions of dollars out of the pockets of gold hounds and well wishers, it is something that this state was founded on and has been in the past a huge draw for the fortune hunters of not just this state but from all over America. Many people were hurt when they placed a moratorium on dredging when they hadn’t even determined scientifically that it was harmful. Now that they have done an EIR on dredging and the effects they have found that the test showed no significant harm to the environment and not one place did they say that it was a significant risk to the environment; since they couldn’t prove it bad they passed legislation to stop it. This is what you get when you have personnel agendas against something and you have the power to stop whatever you want to stop, the Sierra Fund and Sierra Club are the culprits that feel that is there way or the highway.

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  • cookie65January 31, 2013 - 7:35 pm

    There is no one with two eyes and two ears who cannot see the environmental movement as one continuous propaganda campaign. Children are indoctinated with it on the paper placemats an IHOP. Cartoons, commercials, music, every form of media on an endless basis. The side of buses, the side of garbage trucks, park benches, billboards, advertisements, indoctinated from birth. Not a single 24 hour period without it being repeated for them. How many time does someone need to be reminded of gravity? But think of it this way. It is a small investment to be able to take control of trillion of dollars. Convince some young impressionable minds of something that makes them feel guilty and own their behavior for life. Just keep repeating it and people will beleive. ala Joseph Goebbels.

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  • cookie65January 31, 2013 - 7:41 pm

    Cllea, other than being a clueless twit what other qualities do you possess? The earth is assumed to by @4.6 billion years old. The oldest rocks ever found actually came from the lunar surface dated at @3.9billion years. None ever found on earth that old. There is plenty of accepted evidence that the earth is at least .5 billion years older than the moon. If there is some subject you wish to discuss just let me know and I will tell you more off the top of my head than you have ever learned.

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  • clleaJanuary 31, 2013 - 8:03 pm

    Yes, I do know it is a billion. I am not a good multi-tasker. Thanks for pointing that out. You never disappoint.

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  • cookie65January 31, 2013 - 8:48 pm

    I have a question for the green house gas lemmings. Since the oceans and the rain forest produce more green house gases in a single day than all of mans activities has since the industrial age, what shall we do about them? You do realize that without green house gases you wouldn't survive over night? They do just as they are named. They trap heat and store in the atmosphere making our survival possible during the periods when we are not directly warmed by the sun (overnight). Those oceans of coal that exist back east are the result of massive amount of vegitation that existed when there was a whole lot more co2 in the atmosphere than we can ever release. That is how it got trapped there. By the way, we do not create or produce co2, it already existed and has been in the atmosphere many times before at much higher levels than we will ever measure, we merely re-release it. When it was in the atmosphere before north America looked more like Hawaii. Think of it this way, how much vegetation would be required to feed a few dozen brachiosaurus'? Very large bare skinned creatures lived in what is now Wyoming where they could not live today.

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  • M. SchumannJanuary 31, 2013 - 9:39 pm

    Cookie you are so right on, if common since was a snake the left wouldn’t exist. I just watched on TV the Men that Made America, they would never been able to do what they did for the economy today what they did then; they would have been put in jail and the key thrown away. It just goes to show you that our government and the regulations have stifled the expansion of a once great nation, we are in deep dodo and it keeps getting deeper.

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  • francescaduchamp@att.netFebruary 01, 2013 - 1:49 pm

    Several people told me that a group is doing damage control--they are sending out emails saying the meeting has nothing to do with Agenda 21--since I do not know what this is...can someone explain it or put out links. I said that the meeting used a The Delphi Technique to move the responses in a certain way...this is a well known sales pitch--used on product or "idea" promotions. Once it is called to anyone s attention--they will start seeing it as well. Just from the description in the paper that I posted...people have called...understanding it was used.

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