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The weekly Daley: Iraq: it’s been a long 10 years

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From page A6 | March 22, 2013 | 66 Comments

This week when we are reflecting back 10 years to a time of “Shock and Awe,” lots of writers and thinkers and smartheads are putting out retrospectives and asking, “What have we learned  from Iraq?”

I found something I wrote back in those days that kind of talked about what we were learning from Iraq at the time. The following is from Dec. 2, 2005 (with a few clarifying edits) titled “Good news.” At that point we were about two and-a-half years into the war.

*********************

Good news

Tuesday night, I learned from CNN that President Bush plans to give a “major” speech on Wednesday that explains the “plan” he has for getting the U.S. out of Iraq. The plan evidently is contained in a “35 page” document that has been classified for ages but proves that the administration actually does, and did, have a plan to get the U.S. out of Iraq.

Why it’s taken so long to be unveiled and de-classified was not discussed in the news piece — nor was the reason why it’s being unveiled and de-classified now. A cynic could offer a dozen cynical reasons at this point, but I’ll only suggest the obvious and maybe a couple of other reasons.

First, the president and his aides are not dummies. They can read the numbers as well or better than most. Recent polls (remember, this was December 2005) show 60 percent of Americans are now acknowledging that the Iraq war “wasn’t worth it.” Another majority percentage of people appear not to believe the president when he tells us it was worth it, for all the reasons he tells us it was worth it.

“Worth” and “it” being the mostly operative concepts here. Maybe it was worth something but not this, is my take on the issue. If we could have done it as easily and quickly as we were led to believe it could be done, maybe it would have been worth it …  But the pure truth is, we were led to believe it was going to be a cake walk, and that the reasons were so above reproach (think WMD), that we almost couldn’t “not” do it.

Richard Nixon was another president who was less than completely forthright with the American people about his plan to end the war in Vietnam. His  “plan that never was” called for staged withdrawals, as I recall, and was dependent on the South Vietnamese becoming stronger until they were able to provide for their own security. As they “stood up, we would stand down,” was more or less the buzz term then as it is now.

As “they stand up, we will stand down” frankly, is not a plan to my way of thinking. It is a hope, and hope is not a plan. Hope is what one wishes will happen but has little or no control on an actual outcome. American commanders and advisers “hope” their Iraqi students will stand up at some point sooner rather than later, but they can’t assure it and they can’t control external forces that might overwhelm their charges. And unfortunately, that doesn’t affect the plan at all, because there was no timetable for the Iraqis to be able to “stand up.”

And admittedly, it’s a rather subjective determination. If 46 percent of a particular Iraqi brigade doesn’t run away from a fight, is that considered “standing up?” If fewer than half of the forces stand and fight, can anyone legitimately suggest that they are ready to be self-sufficient?

I’m counting on finding these things out in the president’s speech Wednesday, just in time to revise this if necessary.

Unfortunately, it appears unnecessary to revise this. What I heard Wednesday morning was pretty much the same tired, jingoistic rhetoric about staying with the mission until it’s accomplished or staying with the task until the goals are reached, (fortunately not “staying the course”). The word “victory” seemed to have replaced some other terms we’ve heard before which translated, in my mind, to “staying the course, whatever and however long it takes.”

Whatever was in the 35 page plan didn’t come very clear to me. “We’re going to train up the Iraqi army and security forces, and when they’re ready and able to defend themselves and see to the country’s security, then we’ll bring our brave troops home.” (Not a minute sooner nor a minute later.)

The president’s plan in December 2005, in my mind is a lot like Richard Nixon’s plan 35 years ago.

President Bush of course can’t get elected or re-elected on the basis of his plan, but he could be destined for a legacy of derision and contempt because his plan sounds a lot like Nixon’s plan, which turned out to be an expensive non-plan that cost many thousands of more lives and wasted treasure.

*********************

So, “What have we learned from Iraq?” I’d say we’ve learned about the same things we learned from Vietnam and have yet to learn from Afghanistan. People without a shred of Western-style Democratic traditions simply do not fit into our “plans” and they especially don’t fit into our American-style timetables for getting things done. We get pushed into wars believing we’ll create “mini-Americas” full of grateful citizens who will adopt free and transparent governments — just like ours.

And maybe they will, if not in this century, then in centuries to come. That’s the lesson I hope we’ve learned from Iraq. It never is and never will be as simple as we want and absolutely never as quickly as we want. And the concept of “worth it” really needs to be at the forefront of all our intellectual, moral, political, socio-economic, military and foreign policy discussions for the next 100 years.

Chris Daley is a staff writer and columnist for the Mountain Democrat. His column appears each Friday. 

LEAVE A COMMENT

Discussion | 66 comments

  • Phil VeerkampMarch 21, 2013 - 9:14 pm

    Mr. Daley, your look-back is rather selective. In fact it is rather lazy. You simply dusted off your own assessment of Iraq v Bush from Dec. 2, 2005. Missing from your musings are the Sunni Awakening, the surge and the SOFA (status of forces agreement). OOPS! My bad. There is no status of forces agreement. We left. So what we and the jihadists have learned and confirmed is, “Americans leave”. We left Viet Nam when Congress defunded it. We left Lebanon after the truck bomb. We left the Marsh Arabs to Saddam’s genocide after Desert Storm. We left Iraq. We are leaving Afghanistan. Steadfast? Resolute? Determined? Dependable ally? No. We have an incredibly fantastic military. But we quit. We did not lose Iraq and Afghanistan because of our (Bush’s) mistakes. We quit. I think I’m warming up to “leading from behind”. Quitting is less obvious.

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  • cookie65March 22, 2013 - 6:30 am

    Phil, it seems we may have found those WMD's Iraq moved to Syria. What do you think the man-child is going to do? Aside from the complete failure he is on the economic front he and hildabeast certainly didn't manage to do anything but embolden the jihadists. And now we have kerry for them to laugh at. We have North Korea who is going to act in one form or another. They see obama the same way I do, a pathetic dope smoking 60's throw-back hippy radical who doesn't have the huevos to frighten an old lady at a bingo hall. I am beginning to think we will find out why he and the other radicals in this administration are getting prepared to put down any type of revolt here at home. Utter kaos will make a great cover to shrink any opposition to his true agenda.

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  • Phil VeerkampMarch 22, 2013 - 7:37 am

    Cookie, we may never know. Oh Bama will never say. LINK - A Pentagon document reveals that an Iraqi dissident reported that 50 trucks crossed the border on March 10, 2003, and that his sources in Syria confirmed they carried WMD. These trucks have been talked about frequently and remain a mystery.

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  • EvelynMarch 22, 2013 - 9:11 am

    "10-Year Iraq War Anniversary: What We’ve Learned In the Past Decade" - HERE

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  • EvelynMarch 22, 2013 - 9:13 am

    "Top REPUBLICAN Leaders Say Iraq War Was Really about Oil" - HERE

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  • chrispytahoeMarch 22, 2013 - 9:55 am

    bush = war criminal bankrupted amerika cause god told him to invade iraq. worst president ever.

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  • chrispytahoeMarch 22, 2013 - 10:41 am

    Ask yourselves this...what did we accomplish by invading Iraq? What was the net gain for our country? Me and mine lost friends fighting Bushies war. Iraq is now worse off than when we invaded. This was a total disaster in every sense of the word, yet some of you still try to defend the Bush doctrine by repeatedly attacking the current president. Who by the way is doing a great job fixing the giant F ups Bush left us with! Now you point to N. Korea as a legitimate threat? Are you numb in your heads? Any missile launched from N. Korea can easily be shot out of the sky. True, our men and women in uniform in South Korea are in harm’s way, but what would you advocate? Attacking N. Korea because of a propaganda film put out by Hollywood to promote the new film 'Olympus has Fallen?

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  • Phil VeerkampMarch 22, 2013 - 10:45 am

    Hillary = war criminal - - -> - - LINK - Hillary Clinton Iraq War Vote Speech - Hillary lied. People died.

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  • cookie65March 22, 2013 - 10:46 am

    Yuppie, this is a response I gave to James E. a while back on the subject of Iraq. cookie65March 06, 2013 - 6:43 pm James, thank you and you are 100% correct. As far as I am concerned the entire middle east is not worth one single drop of American blood. There is an answer but we are stuck with politicians who lack the guts to say so. The only reason we have anything to do with those 9th century throwbacks is because of oil. And if we were energy independent we could address the problem like responsible adults. It isn’t complicated. We could remove every last dime we have ever spent or invested in that part of the world and leave them to butcher each other. Letting them know with no uncertain terms that if they ever do any harm to a single American citizen we will melt them. One day it will come to that because of who they are. The issue here at home that we need to overcome is the obstacle to our energy independence and that is the anti-energy leftists in this country who keep us dependent on foreign oil. We have the resources to create energy independence in this country for hundreds of years. The proper role of government in this situation is to establish the condition that any and all energy discovered and produced here at home stays here at home and off the world market. Tell me what that would do to the price of oil overnight if America was no longer a buyer of foreign oil and how would it effect the ability of those savages to inflict harm to others around the world? To bad we have visionaries such as nancy Pelosi who puts her own political ambitions over any reasonable solutions or principles.

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  • cookie65March 22, 2013 - 10:55 am

    Yuppie, I am curious on what planet obama is doing a great job of fixing the F ups Bush left behind? According to USA Today our world image is worse under the community organizer than it was under Bush. We won't go into the 47 million of food stamps or the 50 million on SSI or the 30 million who can't find a job. http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2013/03/20/obamas-middle-east-policy-in-tatters-column/2004343/

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  • cookie65March 22, 2013 - 11:05 am

    89 million out of the work force, is a great job in Yuppies opinion. I remeber when 5% unemployment and $2/gal gas was the end of civilization as we knew it under Bush.

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  • EvelynMarch 22, 2013 - 11:16 am

    "The Last Letter: A Message to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney From a Dying Veteran" - HERE - I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. I joined the Army because our country had been attacked. I wanted to strike back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens. I did not join the Army to go to Iraq, a country that had no part in the September 2001 attacks and did not pose a threat to its neighbors, much less to the United States. I did not join the Army to “liberate” Iraqis or to shut down mythical weapons-of-mass-destruction facilities or to implant what you cynically called “democracy” in Baghdad and the Middle East. I did not join the Army to rebuild Iraq, which at the time you told us could be paid for by Iraq’s oil revenues. . . . I especially did not join the Army to carry out pre-emptive war. Pre-emptive war is illegal under international law.

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  • francescaduchamp@att.netMarch 22, 2013 - 11:26 am

    http://www.iedconline.org/?p=Resource_Center

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  • EvelynMarch 22, 2013 - 11:31 am

    For some reason a comment has been eaten alive. If it does in fact end up being duplicated, apologies. Will try again (next), hoping "the system" has forgotten about my prior effort.

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  • EvelynMarch 22, 2013 - 11:35 am

    "The System" has a memory! It remembers that it already had told me that the comment is a duplicate. I wonder which word was verboten.

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  • EvelynMarch 22, 2013 - 11:36 am

    "The Last Letter: A Message to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney From a Dying Veteran" - HERE

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  • EvelynMarch 22, 2013 - 11:37 am

    ahhhhhhhhhhhh. It's the D*ck word!

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  • EvelynMarch 22, 2013 - 11:39 am

    "The Last Letter: A Message to George W. Bush and D*ck Cheney From a Dying Veteran" - HERE - I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. I joined the Army because our country had been attacked. I wanted to strike back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens. I did not join the Army to go to Iraq, a country that had no part in the September 2001 attacks and did not pose a threat to its neighbors, much less to the United States. I did not join the Army to “liberate” Iraqis or to shut down mythical weapons-of-mass-destruction facilities or to implant what you cynically called “democracy” in Baghdad and the Middle East. I did not join the Army to rebuild Iraq, which at the time you told us could be paid for by Iraq’s oil revenues. . . . I especially did not join the Army to carry out pre-emptive war. Pre-emptive war is illegal under international law.

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  • James E.March 22, 2013 - 4:21 pm

    Phil, if Hillary were to be tried as a war criminal, she would be joined in the dock by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, White House and Department of Defense lawyers, et al., and the majority of the House and Senate members from those years. Plus the President himself for failing to try them (guess he realized some really really big docks would have to be constructed) in violation of Federal and International laws. So, do you see any likelihood of a massive trial?

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  • Phil VeerkampMarch 22, 2013 - 9:32 pm

    Ahhhh yes, James. The rear vier mirror awards a full 40 IQ points to us all. . . except to Richard . . . deduct 40.

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  • Phil VeerkampMarch 22, 2013 - 9:33 pm

    ~view~

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  • James E.March 22, 2013 - 9:37 pm

    Phil, we must look forward, not back. All the bad actors are safe. End of story.

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  • RichardMarch 23, 2013 - 9:57 pm

    Thank you Phil for remembering me, but coming from a former drunk, I don’t know if I should be flattered or insulted.

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  • Phil VeerkampMarch 23, 2013 - 10:11 pm

    Any time, Díck!

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  • James E.March 23, 2013 - 10:26 pm

    Phil, how did you get D*ck through the censor? Friends in high places at the MtDemocrat?

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  • Phil VeerkampMarch 24, 2013 - 12:06 am

    James, I should not tell you how I do this. . . . but . . .áâæ£íííĘШДЙ€ØæÁ Fúck íííĘШДЙ

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  • Kirk W MacKenzieMarch 24, 2013 - 7:01 am

    Richard -- you are the kind of person that gives liberals a bad name.

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  • EvelynMarch 24, 2013 - 7:04 am

    Kirk: You've added a "W"!

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  • cookie65March 24, 2013 - 8:13 am

    Once again Richard shows us the tolerance and diversity of the left. To cannibalize a thought from Churchill, "and tomorrow Richard will still be stupid." Oh and by the way Richard, I bet you worshipped teddy kennedy.

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  • cookie65March 24, 2013 - 8:27 am

    All of you who depend (as in adult diapers) on the leftist media to be informed are probably completely clueless (as per usual) that God's gift to diplomacy compared the Israeli-Palestinian relationship to that of the US and Canada. Leaving open the possibility the the crash test dummy biden may in fact be the smartest one in the group. One news source that doesn't exist to cover for obama had this to say about it. " Apparently, the President doesn’t understand - or chooses to ignore - the fact there are a few differences regarding U.S. relations with our neighbor to the North. -- Canada isn’t controlled by a terrorist organization named Hamas. -- Canada isn’t calling for the destruction of the United States. -- Vancouver isn’t lobbing missiles over the border into Seattle. -- The Canadian government isn’t funding suicide bombers who blow themselves up on U.S. buses and in U.S. pizza parlors. -- Canada has taken the bold step of acknowledging that the United States has right to exist. -- Canada’s Prime Minister probably doesn’t believe that the “Zionists” colluded with the Nazis to create the holocaust. Other than that, he’s right. It’s exactly the same."

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  • ;Kirk W MacKenzieMarch 24, 2013 - 8:56 am

    Cookie -- as a reason based life form, I stop reading after the first fallacy. I rarely get past your first sentence...

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  • James E.March 24, 2013 - 9:37 am

    Richard does not give liberals a bad name, as he has a right to his opinions. He has slogged the confusing maze of the jungle, been through the meat grinder, and severely injured in the service of the United States (and for each of you). You may disagree with his opinions, but a little respect please. Always faithful Marine.

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  • cookie65March 24, 2013 - 10:26 am

    Kirk, between abc, cbs and nbc they aired 18 soundbites totalling 215 seconds. The evening newscasts gave obama 11 soundbites adding up to 135 seconds. Yet not a single one mentioned his erroneous comparison. Once again omitting anything they don't want their audience to know. The obvious question is, if they only tell you what you want to hear, is it really news? obama voters aren't actually low information voters, in fact they are quite informed. The know precisely what the left wants them to believe. This forum is quite useful, not because you choose to remain ignorant, but because lots of people read these comments who might not ever find out the truth thru the media.

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  • Kirk W MacKenzieMarch 24, 2013 - 10:43 am

    James -- Do you think Richard's comment to Mr Veerkamp is excused by his (Richard's) service? I don't.

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  • Kirk W MacKenzieMarch 24, 2013 - 10:50 am

    Cookie -- my point is you are much more effective in your efforts when you stay inside the lines of reason.

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  • cookie65March 24, 2013 - 12:05 pm

    Kirk, please provide for me the "lines of reason" as defined by the left. Let's not forget it was Vice President crash test dummy who proclaimed to a group of useful idiot obama voters that "they (the repubs) gonna put y'all back in chains". And it was the icon of leftism who made references to "libstick on a pig" aimed at Sarah Palin. Are these the lines of reason you are refering to? The left has been in full frontal attack mode against anyone who stands between them and other peoples money for as long as I can remember. It is only recently that people have begun to give it back to them. Tell me why it you believe the leftist media would not report such an asinine claim by obama when they spent weeks hammering Sarah Palin over something she never said? It was Tina Fey on SNL who said "I can see russia from my house" and the majority of obama voters still don't know the truth.

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  • DB SmithMarch 24, 2013 - 12:50 pm

    Does anyone know who the real Kirk MacKenzie is anymore? Kirk Mackenzie, Kirk W MacKenzie or ;Kirk W Mackenzie. Would the real Kirk MacKenzie please stand up?

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  • James E.March 24, 2013 - 1:11 pm

    DB, we seem to have too many MacKinzies. Not good.

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  • DB SmithMarch 24, 2013 - 1:15 pm

    Cookie, you're comments are right about the lefties slinging the mud. They've told so many off the wall lies and the media never follows up on it or makes them accountable. It's so obvious that they can not handle anything negative thrown back at them and especially so if it's factual. They'd better start getting used to it because we're just warming up for new elections and it looks like anything goes.

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  • DB SmithMarch 24, 2013 - 1:18 pm

    I know Colonel... and I've got the Smith thing going on and haven't had too many problems as of yet.

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  • Kirk W MacKenzieMarch 24, 2013 - 1:19 pm

    Mr Smith -- I switched from Kirk MacKenzie to Kirk W MacKenzie to distinguish from the Kirk Mackenzie in an MD article. I fat fingered it on one comment to get the semicolon. No big mysteries or conspiracies.

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  • Kirk W MacKenzieMarch 24, 2013 - 1:33 pm

    Cookie -- The lines of reason were spelled out by the ancient Greeks, not the politicians and spin-heads on the left or right. Stooping to the usual nonsense spouted by most of both major political teams may feel good at a visceral level, but you won't achieve the goals you profess to be striving for. Your choice.

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  • James E.March 24, 2013 - 1:40 pm

    Mr. MacKenzie, and I'm not sure which one you are and you're probably not the real MacKenzie, but do you refer to Richard using the word drunk as it applied to Phil? Phil reminds us, if I read his comment correctly, that he had a bit of a problem with the demon booze (hey, I've also been drunk once or twice in my youth -- but, now a one drink guy -- maybe one every month or two). So, I'm not excited given the word "drunk" is mild compared to much that is thrown back and forth on this site. I'm sure Phil took it in stride, as he is one of the good guys in the MtDemocrat swamp. Now, does Richard's military service give him a pass with me. Given the severity of his service, I must say yes. He will get a lot of slack from me. Not ashamed to say -- I revere Marines because they do the dirty Infantry work and they do it with valor. Now, while we are on the subject how about you give us a vita on your military service. In summary, to the best of my knowledge and belief, Mr. Fred has never been drunk.

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  • DB SmithMarch 24, 2013 - 2:00 pm

    OK Kirk W...if you say so. But some of your earlier posts seemed out of character.

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  • Kirk W MacKenzieMarch 24, 2013 - 2:08 pm

    Mr E. -- I did not serve. You can dismiss Richard's comment as not that ugly, and rationalize that military service grants license to say ugly things. You're entitle to your opinion. I disagree.

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  • EvelynMarch 24, 2013 - 2:24 pm

    It is absolutely guaranteed that the MD poster signing on as Kirk MacKenzie (with or without a "W" or a ";") is exactly who and what he always has represented himself to be. The identity confusion that has arisen has to do with another Kirk MacKenzie and is quite beyond the control of "our" Kirk MacKenzie!

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  • EvelynMarch 24, 2013 - 2:29 pm

    BTW: Sometimes my brother Phil drives me nuts! But I'm exceedingly proud of his personal conduct over the past approx. 30 years. Good thing we're not all still in grammar school. I used to beat up bullies!!!

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  • DB SmithMarch 24, 2013 - 2:34 pm

    Just because Richard served in the military should not allow him a pass for his comments. I've thanked him a few times before for his service and it was sincere but it stops there. If everyone that served in the military were allowed to spout off about anything and everything with no consequence then where would that get us? No pass Richard, but thank you again for your sacrifice to our country.

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  • cookie65March 24, 2013 - 5:13 pm

    Kirk, I'm not sure if the Greeks offer the best example of political civility. As you recall Socrates had to drink hemlock for corrupting the youth and failing to recognize all the proper gods. Apply that to today and 95% of college professors would be wiped out and all the global warming deniers.

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  • Kirk W MacKenzieMarch 24, 2013 - 5:46 pm

    Cookie -- Be that as it may, the topic is effective influence...persuasion. I'll put it another way: What sort of argument do you find persuasive? When was the last time you seriously considered a flawed argument? The people you want to influence are no different. The ideologues on both sides (a minority) are irrationally affixed to their positions. It's the moderate, thinking, majority in the middle that you are(?) targeting...

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  • James E.March 24, 2013 - 6:30 pm

    Mr. MacKenzie, if you don't want to read ugly things, i.e., drunk, then you probably don't want to be on this site as drunk is minimal level of what we read daily. And, had you served you might not be so sensitive to minimal words. Soldiers and Marines are not always such gentlemen as you are -- it's the rigors of the profession of which you are unaware. DB, everyone on this site (well, a few ladies not) spouts off about anything and everything without consequence. Both those who have served and those who have not. P.S. Will Phil have to go on stress leave from this site because of the sinful language of Richard? Of course not, Phil served in the Army and has heard much worse. Hang in Phil.

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  • Kirk W MacKenzieMarch 24, 2013 - 6:38 pm

    Mr E. -- way to miss the point. Knowing you, it's intentional...anything to keep your mind active and engaged. However, your habits of spin and deflect are predictable and tedious. Have you considered non-linear thinking?

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  • James E.March 24, 2013 - 7:07 pm

    Oh, Mr. MacKenzie, you are so superior and above the rest of us. I am so honored to be in your presence.

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  • Kirk W MacKenzieMarch 24, 2013 - 7:21 pm

    Mr E. -- On the contrary, it is I that am honored to play your foil and muse.

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  • cookie65March 24, 2013 - 7:39 pm

    Kirk, here is a fine example of the vile puke that spews from just one of the lefts favorite spokesmen on a major new outlet. How is it you figure this can be dealt with in any respectful manner? For as long as conservatives have treated this with silence we have gone further and further left. http://www.ijreview.com/2013/03/43060-msnbcs-resident-race-baiter-toure-initiates-media-takedown-of-dr-ben-carson

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  • Kirk W MacKenzieMarch 24, 2013 - 7:47 pm

    Cookie -- Personally, I wouldn't respond to such nonsense. Just like I wouldn't respond to similar nonsense that the left identifies as vile puke spewed by right wing extremists. It's red meat for the echo chamber, but the rest of us see it for what it is. If you feel compelled to respond, just itemize the fallacies. You lose if you respond in-kind.

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  • cookie65March 24, 2013 - 9:00 pm

    Kirk, the days of reasoned debate are long gone. Whether you like it or not the very survival of this country is at stake. Leftism isn’t something to argue against, it is something to be exterminated. Leftism devours everything in its path. It feeds off the destruction of people. It does not build up, it only tears down. Leftism fuels the notion that wealth is spread by confiscation and pits people and groups against one another to achieve that outcome. Always with government in the middle. The notion is a lie. Wealth is spread by creating more of it. Leftism works to impede the creation of wealth. It is pure evil, it has no good intentions. It steals everything from people, their freedom, their individuality, their ambitions, their dreams, their property, their self-determination, their motivation, their spirit, their desire and seeks to make them dependent. It promotes groupthink and collectivism while discouraging critical thinking and discernment. It produces poverty and apathy. It lowers every standard of excellence and accomplishment in the interest of fairness. It promotes ignorance and servitude. There is nothing admirable about it and I will continue to treat it as such.

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  • Kirk W MacKenzieMarch 24, 2013 - 9:02 pm

    Cookie -- good luck with that.

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  • cookie65March 24, 2013 - 9:04 pm

    Here is Jim Carry with a new song using the little kids from sandy hook to demonize the people who support the 2nd Amendment. He doesn't mention the loons who created gun-free zones that left them defenseless. http://twitchy.com/2013/03/24/jim-carreys-cold-dead-hand-hey-heres-a-song-for-heartless-motherfckers-unwilling-to-bend-for-the-safety-of-our-kids/

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  • James E.March 24, 2013 - 9:08 pm

    Well then Mr. MacKenzie, as we are both honored it appears, as usual, we will have to agree to disagree.

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  • cookie65March 24, 2013 - 9:14 pm

    Here is a university professor from Oregon who claims that people who deny man-made global warming are diseased and need treatment. http://www.examiner.com/article/oregon-professor-climate-change-skeptics-diseased-need-treatment

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  • Phil VeerkampMarch 24, 2013 - 10:24 pm

    . . . that Oregon Professor, Kari Norgaard, . . . wow . . . uh . . . I'm struggling for an adjective, but probably I ought to give up as I would only be serving up a superficial gratuitous ad hominem . . . Alfred E Newman after a failed face lift? . . . Strange! . . . But why do I focus on her personal appearance when her world view is so . . . Orwellian? I suspect that she would point to me as a candidate for treatment. Soylent Green? She probably would be open to a human delete button . . . a special sort of EASY BUTTON.

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  • EvelynMarch 25, 2013 - 5:48 am

    "The Conflation Trap: How the Left & the Right Are Fooled Into Supporting the Same Elite Interests" - HERE

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  • Phil VeerkampMarch 25, 2013 - 6:17 am

    From Evelyn's link, "The Conflation Trap" - - - In short, people tend to have not only difficulty with, but even aversion to, recognising something that doesn’t fit their established categories. - - - Boy, ain't that the truth!

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  • EvelynMarch 25, 2013 - 7:15 am

    Equally to the point is the difficulty of recognizing the trap set for us by the left-right paradigm.

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  • Kirk W MacKenzieMarch 25, 2013 - 4:39 pm

    Richard -- I owe you an apology. I insulted you instead of objecting to your comment.

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    News

    Air quality rating up in the air

    By Chris Daley | From Page: A1

     
    GDPUD: Budget and GM are top topics

    By Dawn Hodson | From Page: A1, 1 Comment

    Mountain lion seen in Placerville

    By Dawn Hodson | From Page: A1, 4 Comments

     
    CTE a pathway to higher wages, higher-demand jobs

    By Wendy Schultz | From Page: A1

     
    Heard over the back fence: Earth Day at the library

    By Bob Billingsley | From Page: B1

    New top 10 fugitive could be in area

    By News Release | From Page: A3

     
    Community Action Council seeks new member

    By Health and Human Services Agency | From Page: A3

    Rattlesnake Avoidance Clinics May 3-4

    By Hangtown Kennel | From Page: A9

     
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    Opinion

    Belltower: El Niño or el nada?

    By Michael Raffety | From Page: A4 | Gallery

     
    The balancing act: Save the whales

    By Larry Weitzman | From Page: A4

    Retain Joe Harn as auditor

    By Mountain Democrat | From Page: A4, 10 Comments

     
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    Letters

    Tell the truth, don’t confuse voters

    By Letters to the Editor | From Page: A5

     
    Local petitions circulating

    By Letters to the Editor | From Page: A5, 6 Comments

    Chess club

    By Letters to the Editor | From Page: A5

     
    True Christian

    By Letters to the Editor | From Page: A5

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    Sports

    Sports Scene: April 20, 2014

    By Democrat Staff | From Page: A6

     
    All Star team shows competive balance

    By Special to the Democrat | From Page: A6

    Australian rugby team visits Cameron park

    By Democrat Staff | From Page: A6 | Gallery

     
    Roundup: Cougars drop finale

    By Democrat Staff | From Page: A6

    Red hot Rico Abreu blazes to victory

    By Gary Thomas | From Page: A6

     
    Schedule: April 21-26, 2014

    By Democrat Staff | From Page: A6

    Rains to present at AMA conference

    By David Albee | From Page: A7

     
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    Prospecting

    Spend time in River City

    By Wendy Schultz | From Page: B2 | Gallery

     
    As we were: Supervisors can’t decide

    By Ken Deibert | From Page: B2

    Cantare Chorale seeks new director

    By Cantare Chorale | From Page: B3

     
    Help with healthcare decisions

    By Snowline Hospice Thrift Stores | From Page: B3

     
    Time to enter El Dorado County Fair

    By El Dorado County Fair | From Page: B3

    Volunteers needed for day of service

    By Mimi Escabar | From Page: B10

     
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    Essentials

    DUI Log: Feb. 28-April 3

    By Cole Mayer | From Page: A2

     
    Lake levels 4-17-14

    By Michael Raffety | From Page: A2

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    Obituaries

    Dianne Johnson

    By Contributor | From Page: A2

     
    Michael R. Sponsler

    By Contributor | From Page: A2

    Daniel Bish Sr. funeral notice

    By Contributor | From Page: A2

     
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    Real Estate

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    Comics

    Sudoku

    By Contributor | From Page: A8

     
    Rubes

    By Contributor | From Page: A8

    American Profile Crossword

    By Contributor | From Page: A8

     
    Tundra

    By Contributor | From Page: A8

    New York Times Crossword

    By Contributor | From Page: A8

     
    Horoscope, Tuesday, April 22, 2014

    By Contributor | From Page: A8

    Horoscope, Monday, April 21, 2014

    By Contributor | From Page: A8

     
    TV Listings

    By Contributor | From Page: A8

    Speed Bump

    By Contributor | From Page: A8

     
    Shoe

    By Contributor | From Page: A8